alhamdulillah Alum greetings of peace to
everybody how are you you come to get
some food for the soul you've been
replete with everything El but it's not
satisfying the soul money can't buy that
happiness it won't bring you peace not
even a sixpack of Peace you can't buy
[Music]
it alhamdulillah alikum greetings of
peace to everybody all over the globe
thank you for tuning in to another
episode on The Dean show our next guest
was an inspiring inspiring Baptist
Minister from
Texas and he's here on the dean show to
share his story on why he came to this
beautiful Dean this way of life that
brought him peace happiness and
contentment and he realized that you
know what I need to be on the way of
life that's pleasing to the crater
before I meet the crater and he's here
to share his story with us here on the
dean show will be right back
the this is
the this is the this is
the is
the this is
the this is the
the
the this is thean show
this is the
the this is
the the I'm going to greet you with the
greetings of Jesus now before I do that
you already know what that is what is
that Salam peace peace we're people who
want peace isn't it true I mean now what
what what did you think before look time
is short so I just like to just get in
it so tell us before you became one who
submitted to the will of God a Muslim
you were aspiring a Baptist Minister
what did you know about Islam before
well nothing nothing did you believe
that Muslims were like terrorists Arabs
you know that were riding in the desert
on camels and no My Story begins back in
1989 when I was actually in college and
I was not uh studying to be a minister
but I decided my senior year that I
wanted to become a Baptist minister so I
decided to finish my degree and my
senior year for my entertainment I drug
all of my colleagues and friends and
everybody I knew into a religious
conversation to help me prepare for
Seminary as a Baptist I was going to go
to a Baptist Seminary and my senior year
in college inviting people to talk about
religion if you haven't done this on a
college campus I would highly recommend
you do it just for the entertainment
value if nothing else it's hard to find
any two people who agreed on anything
and so as I'm talking to people about
religion I am introduced to people who
are Muslim I became friends with
somebody who was a Muslim I didn't know
the first thing about Islam but after
our introduction and our friendship I
drug him into a religious conversation
and it didn't take me long to consider
my friend a confused Christian I knew
nothing about Islam but from what he was
sharing with me we had a very similar
Faith except he was confused about
Jesus so before we get tell us so but
why did you get into this field why did
you want to become a Baptist Minister
why specifically that area well I I was
I grew up uh Christian uh my family uh
was Christian and as I went to school I
uh actually uh grew up in a very
conservative family where I didn't have
a lot of uh what I thought was Freedom
so when I got to college I I uh I cut
loose and I enjoyed myself for the first
second third year and after a while I
started to think this is not who I am
this is not how I was brought up this is
not me so I had an epiphany that I
wanted to become a Baptist Minister and
get back to where I belong back to the
faith so this is what encouraged me to
decide to become a Baptist Minister now
you have what what do you have Lutheran
you have uh non-denominational how many
actually thousands or hundreds of
denomination sex are there and how do
did you come to this one because of your
family yeah my family I grew up Baptist
so that was it just you were continuing
the Trad family my mom loved me my Dad
loved me they wouldn't lie had to be
right what do Baptists actually
believe what do they actually believe
yeah did you believe that Jesus was Lord
savior he was God Almighty as a Baptist
you believe in a verse called John 3:16
that for God so loved the world that he
gave his only begotten son that
whosoever believeth in him should not
perish but have everlasting life so God
sent not his son into the world to
condemn the world but that the world
through him might be saved so Jesus was
my savior as a Baptist so Baptist
believe that you just have to have faith
is that right you just have to have
faith that Jesus died for your sins and
you're going to heaven right they
believe that salvation is based on Grace
that nobody can earn salvation and that
if you accept the atonement of Jesus the
payment of sins the atonement then
that's how you attain salvation okay so
now you meet this Muslim what happens
next well I met the Muslim and we talked
about religion and after he explained a
little bit about Islam I considered him
a confused Christian that was my summary
of what he had shared with me so we
continued to talk and as we talked about
religious uh or religion in general
every time we brought up a topic he
wasn't necessarily practicing he wasn't
in the daa he wasn't trying to convert
me at all we met in a bar so we didn't
meet in like a religious environment
yeah so he was he wasn't even practicing
but let me show you how powerful is he
he would then every time we had this
conversation he loved to talk religion
he loved to talk politics so he was not
shy to talk he just wasn't practicing
yeah and so after we' have a
conversation the next time we met he
would bring me a book a pamphlet a
brochure something on that topic but a
religious comparative dialogue between a
Muslim and a Christian so I would get
this information and as I would be
presented with this comparative religion
uh dialogue between me and my friend I
start to hear some of the um the
dialogue that's that that Muslims and
Christians have had Forever This
Interfaith dialogue what are the
differences what are the similarities in
Islam I was introduced uh to one of the
uh probably renowned uh Scholars a
gentleman named Ahmed didat who passed
away from sou you met him no I I read
all of his books he actually brought me
one book at a time from Ahmed didot
because it it tied into our conversation
uh I started uh getting information from
Ahad I got information from Jamal buwi
uh Gary Miller all over the place this
religious dialogue started to to to come
alive and I'm taking it upon myself to
convert my new Muslim friend to
Christianity and I'm learning about
Islam in the process and I'm continuing
to have religious conversations with
everybody around me just for my
entertainment basically drag them into
the
conversation and what I'm finding out is
that everybody has a different opinion
about religion or whatever whatever it
is they believe why they believe it and
what's holding them to it and it started
to frustrate me like how do you share
with everybody who's different a
religion when nobody you know somebody
has an emotional attachment somebody had
an experience somebody was driving a car
so and it's like how do you how am I
going to do daa as a Christian right and
I it it it occurred to me through the
conversation I had with my friends that
the best way to do da would be to
convince other people of how authentic
autic and persuasive the Bible is you
can rely on the Bible you can trust the
Bible you can use the Bible as your
Authority so I decided that my daa as a
Christian would be to use the Bible to
persuade other people of Christianity
instead of an emotional connection
instead of an argument so because I
wanted to go that round I decided
to to learn more about the history of
the Bible so that I could convince other
of its
Authority do you want me to no keep
going okay so as I did that I myself had
to learn more about the Bible I was
convinced the Bible was true again my
mom loved me she wouldn't lie this has
to be right everybody I knew was
Christian so I it was just me that
needed to know how to understand the
Bible better to present it as I started
to study the Bible and what's called the
historicity of the Bible I started to
learn more about the book that I
believed in the more I learned about the
book that I believed in the more
confused I became I started to learn
things that I didn't learn in Sunday
school things I didn't hear in church
service things that was never told to me
as a Christian give us an example well I
started to learn how we got the Bible
and the Bible is a collection of books
that have come together over time and I
was shocked to find out that the books
that are now in the Bible specifically
the King James version of the Bible just
in case there's different version that
we don't know who the authors are there
are people today you pick up a Bible the
author is unknown we pick up books of
the Bible we find that the Old Testament
the copies we have of the Old Testament
the oldest version of the Old Testament
is newer than the oldest versions of the
New Testament and we find that these
there were councils and and votes taken
on which books should be in and which
should be out and that when you look for
the history of this book you start to
say it's more concerning than pers aive
and the more I learned about the history
of the Bible the
more challenging my own conviction
became and I started to learn and really
I have a bad habit and that is if
something's worth doing it's worth
overdoing so I have this one speed you
know Full Speed Ahead yeah so I immersed
myself in this uh my senior year and
talking to people about religion and
trying to convince them about the
authority of the Bible and as I'm
learning more about the Bible and I
learned learn about the New Testament
and learn more about Jesus and he spoke
Aramaic and nothing's nothing's been
preserved in his original tongue
nothing's in Hebrew the closest dialect
that the Jews spoke and preserved all
their religion in so I started to get
more and more frustrated with the
authority of the Bible then I started
reading more about comparative religious
dialogue and these authors like ahed Dad
or somebody who uh is is trying to show
that maybe there's a better Authority
than the Bible we're challenging the
Bible say the Bible God's word is this
you know authentic is this accurate as
I'm struggling with that to try to to
actually command it to where I can
persuade somebody else I'm introduced to
more ideas one of the ideas I had no
idea that even existed is that Muslims
think that Muhammad is mentioned in the
Bible and I said no I've been to school
I've grown up in this religion we don't
talk about Muhammad he's not in the book
He's not in the Old Testament he's not
in the New Testament I'm pretty sure
this is where you've gone off base but I
asked people to to share with me what
verses they feel appli to the prophet
Muhammad and there's plethora there's
lots of verses that people say this is
this is the Prophet Muhammad in the
Bible and you go read the verse and it
may not say The Prophet by name but it
mentions somebody's going to do
something at a certain time in a certain
way and as I read these verses I'm
thinking whatever you want to interpret
anybody can come up with any conclusion
they want but for me I wanted to know
what the Christian Christian would say
to the Muslim in response so I got the
best answers I could to explain each
verse and as I heard the argument of
this is the prophet Muhammad here's his
life here's his story here's where he's
coming from here's what he's going to do
here's how he's going to do it here's
what he's going to say all of
this started to persuade me that my book
that I believed in was actually ordering
me to follow this person that I didn't
even recognize and that only did it
order me to follow him it was so
specific as to what and who and how in
every way that this person was the
person who he claimed to be Muhammad and
that Christians and Jews were told to
follow once he came so to make a long
story short I actually the time I
graduated I had learned enough about the
history of the Bible I had done a
comparative religious study of Muhammad
in the Bible is the Bible God's word I
had challenged the authority of the
Quran and tried to tear it apart because
once I saw the similarities I saw the
problems I was having with the Bible and
I tried to do to discredit the Quran in
the same way I was actually discrediting
myself and I found that the Quran ended
up being everything I wanted
Christianity to be as far as Authority
and authenticity so by the time I
graduated I embraced Islam instead of
going to Seminary this is a very
intriguing story my ears are glued I'm
sure yours are also don't go anywhere
cuz we got a lot more more to talk about
with Camille Meeks here on the dean show
we'll be right back you think these
things are going to bring you happiness
you know why you keep going back to the
club and you keep going back to these
desires cuz you never find
satisfaction it's going to end up
causing you if it hasn't already a lot
of
pain you think you're happy you're
kidding yourself you really
are what we are offering in Islam what
we have found in Islam for ourselves is
a means by which our hearts are at peace
they're at rest they're not discontent
we are pleased with what we
[Music]
have back here with khil Meeks aspiring
Baptist Minister now you're a Muslim and
at that time was it was it something
that at that time you're getting conf
Fus obviously now all these things that
you're believing for your whole life you
believed in your whole life and now here
comes all this new information were you
scared what were some of the things that
were going through your mind did you
want to shut it off did you just want to
or was it was it um uh was it something
that was motivating you more did you go
back to some of your friends Christians
some of the higher ups and did they tell
you look this is from the devil leave it
alone talk to us about this well as I
was doing my research and uh it
basically it it boiled back down to the
same question that I uh posed beginning
U of my Muslim friend instead of him
being a confused Christian maybe I was a
confused Muslim and it my my search at
that point came down to is Jesus God or
not that was it in your mind is he God
or not if he's God then I'm a Christian
if he's not I'm a Muslim simple that was
it and so as I wanted to focus on that
issue
what I started to see is Jesus speaking
to me from the Bible in his own words
not what I heard from the the the
minister not what I heard in Sunday
school not the theology I wanted Jesus
to tell me who he is where he came what
he did so I could see if Jesus is
telling me he's God or if he says
something different and when I start
looking at Jesus and what he said in the
Bible he said the father's greater than
I I have my known self do nothing why
callest me good there's none good but
the father Our Father Who Art in Heaven
even on the cross he says my God my God
why has Thou forsaken me so I start to
hear Jesus telling me he's not God I
start to see Jesus saying that I am not
what you're hearing from others or their
interpretation of what Jesus said and so
when I studied even more and I really
wanted to know I mean that you take sou
search and when you when you
base your faith on something and that
Foundation is
challenged I I'm not one to run from it
I was just one to to go more into it so
I really wanted to know if I was right
or if Islam was right and hearing
the the concept of Ted of Islam that God
is one that like you say we we worship
the Creator not the creation if you can
touch it taste it see it feel it it's
less than Divine somehow it is it's
dependent on something else so Islam was
simple it was straightforward it was
direct it said that Jesus was a prophet
he spoke the truth everything he said is
true he said the father's greater than I
I didn't do this so follow what I say
and worship God
versus did he come with a with a mission
to atone for sin and this vicarious
atonement and is this issue of sin so
profound that we have to have this
mechanism this salvation for us to enter
Heaven and from every angle I could
approach it from logic from emotion from
history from talking to everybody I
could surround myself with everything
that I kept hearing kept pointing me
towards Jesus is not God there is one
God there's a heaven hell a day of
judgment and I need to be ready for that
what about the people to say well we
know that he's not God he's the son of
he's the begotten Son of God and no one
comes to the father except through me
they quote this what do you what do you
how do you respond to
this if words have meaning
Christianity's theology cannot hold to
start with divine nature denies
sunship you can't be a Divine son you
can be a son and you can't be divine or
you can be God so to be the Son of God
is a contradiction As you move forward
for in this concept where Jesus said
something and that how do you interpret
what he says right I am my father are
one it can be interpreted a million ways
but he could be the one in purpose he
could be one and the same person it
could mean lots of things but when you
ask Jesus who are you are
you Christ the son of God even that
title he refused to accept he said no
and tell no man such a thing others
continued to apply it but he didn't say
it
so these these
these verses that people say that Jesus
claimed to be God have no bearing
on the fact that he was saying I am
equal to God John 1:1 in the beginning
was the word and word the word was with
God and then the word became flesh
you'll hear this thrown out as soon as
you say he's not God this will be all
spattered in your face what do you got
to say about
that you could answer all of them with
the same force of if what they if I give
you the argument of anything that Jesus
said you know God said I am and Jesus
said well before Abraham was I am you
know that one too yeah yeah so that
therefore he's
God without going into the the
Linguistics and what could be said and
what wasn't said it's a straightforward
argument that when Jesus said the father
is greater than I right I of my own self
do nothing why callest me good there's
none good but the father those verses
would be equ challenging for any human
being to say well they have this
esoteric meaning they have this meaning
they have so this show isn't long enough
for me to explain the real meaning of
what they have but I'm just saying in a
in a very simple manner that Jesus was
very clear as to who he was why he came
and what he did and in my opinion he
ordered Muslims to follow Muhammad I'll
give you this one verse give us to us in
John 16th chapter of John in the Bible
I'll use the King James version Jesus is
speaking to his disciples about things
to come and he said nevertheless I tell
you the truth it's expedient for me
Jesus to go for if I do not go the
comforter will not come but if I go I
will send him unto
you and he and then a few verses later
says and he the spirit of truth will not
speak of himself but what he hears he
shall speak and he shall guide you unto
all truth now I have a Muslim audience
in front of me right now if I ask you
what did Jesus mean in that verse who
would he be referring
to
Muhammad if I asked a Christian they
wouldn't bat an eye they would say that
is the comforter the Holy Ghost right so
he's saying the Holy Ghost is coming
this Trinity God the Father the Son the
Holy Ghost these three in one there's
not three but they're the same
so I I'll tell the Christian well let's
read the verse with Clarity so that
we're clear on your position right Jesus
Is God God the father is God and the
Holy Ghost is God if we read the verse
with just Simplicity we say God said to
the Jews he said it's expedient for God
to go for if God does not go God will
not come but if God goes God will send
God unto you then later says and God the
spirit of truth will not speak of
godself but what God hears God shall
speak and God shall guide you into all
truth
I don't have to explain that yeah and
when you look at the Bible and you take
out
this this gymnastics of what words mean
or what they can't mean and how they
mean things it becomes clear what it's
telling you to do it's saying there's
one God there's a heaven there's a hell
there's a day of judgment there's a
person who's coming after Jesus who's
going to do these things from where he's
going to come the city the people the
tribe the things he's going to do you
can't mistake it you would have to have
to
ignore it bury it run from it as to
accept it it's got to be Lucid it's got
to be clear it can't be now esoteric as
you said and let's just you know it's
confusion mental gymnastics to make it
work God's message got to be clear you
can take care for what it says and it
tells you to be a Muslim one who
submitted to the will of God we'll be
right back with more here on the dean
show all of the prophets would have been
labeled Muslims because this essential
message was the same message
to the will of
God this is God talking to you directly
how can I stand behind the pulpit on
Sunday morning and preach a sermon that
I knew was at variance with the actual
Tap Root of
Christianity
main you say that you do not believe in
Jesus you have stepped outside of his
name you cannot be a Muslim it is a
tended our faith to believe in and love
Jesus Christ it comes to you the truth
and the attribute of the one who created
you that he's one and alone running this
universe that he doesn't become born he
doesn't die he doesn't eat then go to
the bathroom this is not God you got
problems here it doesn't make sense who
was Jesus worshiping because it's
recorded in the gospels despite all of
the other issues about the gospels we
put those aside we just say it's
mentioned there that Jesus worship
God back here on the dean show with
aspiring Baptist Minister you were
working hard you went through life
chasing your desires you let loose as
you said and then you wanted to be a man
of God you obviously believed in God you
met a Muslim one who submitted to the
will of God a Muslim is simply one who
was like Jesus Jesus was a Muslim is
that true or not yes Moses was a Muslim
amen amen because a Muslim is one who
submits to the will of God so now that
tell us you
have obviously spoke to some professors
at Seminary school have you people
who've attended graduated tell us you
know when when they come across people
such as Bible scholars such as Bart arum
you've heard of him right and other
Scholars who tell us that we don't have
a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of
anything original from the Bible right
is that true you know what arguments and
why don't people like as yourself
obviously you were searching for God for
the truth you know I asked you was it
scary was it you know intimidating
because societal pressures maybe your I
was talking to one person on the street
the other day and they say oh it makes
sense but my grandmother would kill me
if I became a Muslim you know so how did
your parents accept this and how do
people you know in those higher
positions do they know they know that we
don't have the original text Matthew
didn't write Matthew Luke these weren't
you know the they're Anonymous books
what excuse do people give I mean do you
ever look someone in the eye and say
come on man I I've been here who are you
kidding um no I I I say that when you
get a little comfortable with someone
you know what I'm saying no I'm very
comfortable I I don't have a problem
talking about it but what uh what I find
is that there are apologetics for
everything and if you hold a position
and you want to defend it you will see
things the way you want to see them I
don't think that the most eloquent
argument or the most profound statement
or the most direct uh approach to
convincing somebody ever works I've
argued with people until I'm blew in the
face I invite Theological Seminary
students to my house to to practice
before they go so that they get ready
for Islam so they'll come over and they
don't buy anything that I say applies to
Muhammad they have apologetics for
everything they're convinced there's not
one error they're convinced that this
Bible is perfect and whole and complete
they've heard what I've said they've
seen what I've said they have their
position it's my opinion after spending
the last 21 22 years that trying to talk
somebody into Islam is a bad idea that
Muslims
have a much more powerful way to express
their faith and to talk to people and
that is just shut up and be a
Muslim every time I have these debates
and I I like them I enjoy them to me
it's a it's a fun thing to have somebody
who knows what they're talking about
challenge my faith back and forth but
I've never seen that effective where
somebody you know like you said okay
buddy now tell me are you with me
because they get more dogmatic more
defensive more distant even though we're
still in the same room but if I say
excuse me I need a minute I have to go
pray because it's just about time to run
so I go pray and I come back they
haven't heard a word I've said for two
hours in the arguing but now they're
totally curious as to why I had to stop
and pray and what was all that about and
what did you say and how did you say it
and every time I actually practice my
faith I get a million questions when I
want to talk to somebody about my faith
I get a hands up I've heard enough
that's good for you thank you very much
or I have position and and we start
differing
so if I had any advice for myself and
others daa is so much more powerful in
action than words when it comes to words
instead of going into a chapter verse
understanding I found the most powerful
form of daa for all of us is just to
share the concept of Ted so that it's
clear if we communicate to anybody on
the planet what we believe as salvation
for a Muslim that there's one God Heaven
hell day of judgment that there's a
Creator who's not like the creation if
you can touch it taste it feel it it's
not God God has these attributes who we
know who God is but we don't know
anything more than that if you can
communicate the Perfection of Ted the
Oneness of God and say this is my
salvation if I C if I challenge that
concept and I say something is God that
isn't I'll go to hell people understand
that and you can lean da at that level
because here's what I found out once
somebody understands Ted everybody you
talk to says I believe that they don't
true they do not challenge that but they
try to make their religion fit into it
and that becomes their gymnastic let
them do the workout and what'll happen
is people will later come back to me
I've given a lecture I've talked I've
said hi I've shared Ted somewhere I get
a phone call two years later and
somebody's telling me you know what you
said I've been wrestling with it and
today I'm a Muslim or I want to become a
Muslim or I want to convert and it
didn't come from an argument it didn't
come from me talking about their faith
and telling them how to look at their
book and how to see things differently
just here's what I believe I love this
position Salam alaykum it is powerful it
is it moves mountains and it is the
thing that all of us can share with
anybody we come in contact in last
minute that we have tell us you run an
organization called the Muslim legal
fund yes tell us a little about this
before we close yes I'm very excited
about uh an organization that uh I
helped as a Founder it's called the
Muslim legal fund of America it's a
charity that opened after 2001 so for
the last 11 years it's a charity that
helps Muslims face legal challenges here
in the US we collect money from Muslims
all over the United States and with the
money we collect we use it to hire
attorneys to defend Muslims in the
courtroom and what we've seen is that
this is a very necessary thing because
of the politics of fear here and the
things that are going on in this country
it looks like America's trying to take a
new Direction and it's challenging
itself everywhere it starting to
challenge things and Liberties that this
country was founded on freedom of speech
freedom of Association freedom of
advocacy freedom of protest freedom to
assemble these things are coming into
question in courtrooms all over the
country and the government is coming up
with theories that this this lawful
conduct fits some kind of crial uh
conspiracy and we are very vested in
giving people an opportunity to tell
their side of the story to be
represented so that they're not getting
railroaded in politics of fear and where
these cases can actually be uh dealt
with in a very fair uh fair and
professional manner so I encourage
anybody that wants to learn more about
the organization to go to our website
mfa.org I'm going to put you on the spot
real quick we just another 30 seconds
the person now he's kind of in the same
situation here toid toed now explain
this what you had mentioned what is this
concept that we believe so strongly
about that is the truth real quickly Ted
is so simple it means that there's a
Creator who created everything again if
you can touch it taste it see it smell
it if it's tangible physical in any way
it's not God so we as human beings and
the word Islam means to submit or to
surrender right to willfully uh take
your free will suppress it and say that
I want to follow guidance I want to
follow God's will I want to do what's
right so that willful submission is what
the word Islam means Ted means means
you're surrendering to this Creator this
this unique being and as a Muslim our
Salvation our Eternal Hereafter depends
on associating nothing that isn't God
With God so for a Muslim our Salvation
means if we worship anything that we
that's tangible this is a contradiction
to Ted and that if we do that we will go
to hell so we can't worship the Sun the
moon the stars people planet any Idols
everything that that you have in your
your your your vocabulary what we could
worship other than God this concept of
the Creator uh is forbidden and it is so
simple and so pure that it means that
you have this connection with your
creator through the attributes of God
and and all of the things that God has
shared with us about what God is but
that we don't need to confuse ourselves
uh with any type of association with God
that isn't so
is worship the Creator and nothing else
that's right thank you very much and may
the creator of the heavens and the Earth
the same God that Jesus worshiped
Muhammad Moses and all the messengers of
God reward you thank you very much for
being with us thank you and that's the
message that we're trying to deliver to
you to have a loving relationship with
the one who created creation to worship
the Creator not his creation and you
know what it's a message that resonates
with the heart and if you're a Muslim
put off talking about halal meat for a
minute you've been talking to your
neighbor about halal meat talk to him
about toed let him get connected with
the one who created creation and put all
these secondary things on hold for a
minute and connect him with the one who
gave him life who give him death and
that's a reality we're all going to die
so let's prepare for that day of
judgment before we say bye-bye and we're
saying bye right here on the dean show
until next time peace be with you
[Music]