alhamdulillah peace be unto you thank
you again for tuning in to another
episode of the dean show all thanks and
praise is to the creator of the heavens
and the Earth who's given us this
ability this platform to be with you
today to talk about many of the
truths of Islam now one crucial thing
that is very important is that we know
that God Almighty throughout
time he is a loving and merciful god a
just God and he has manifested this by
throughout time sending through his
Messengers what he wants from us how he
wants us to live and the many rewards
and delights that are waiting for those
who strive their utmost to be upright
and honest and live a Godly life not
according to your whims and desires but
life according to how the creator of the
heavens and earth wants you to live now
we as Muslims we
believe in the torat which was given to
Moses peace be upon him in its original
we believe in
theil some translate as the gospel not
gospels which was given to Jesus Christ
peace be upon him and what was given of
the scripture to Abraham what was given
to Da David peace be upon them all
and what was given what we have is a
living miracle today
intact the verbatim word of God the
Quran which has been memorized by
millions and we did a show on this
giving you the overwhelming amount of
evidence to show you and to prove to you
that the Quran is indeed the verbatim
word of God but today we want to talk
about the Bible we want to talk about
this
book to examine it to see is this indeed
the word of the creator of the heavens
and earth what is it so to help cover
this very important topic is our good
friend and brother who's been with with
us before he has a special section at
the Deen show.com Dr Gerald Dirks he is
a doctor in Clinical Psychology amongst
that he has graduated with honors from
the prestigious Harvard University with
a masters in Divinity finished Seminary
school and the list goes on we're going
to bring him out to help us tackle this
topic on a closer look into the Bible
we'll be right back on the dean
[Music]
show
Allah there's only one God and muhamad
is his messenger
[Music]
Allah there's only one God and Jesus was
his messenger Allah
I don't know why I did that maybe maybe
it's just to break the ice peace be unto
you and peace unto you brother alikum
thank you very much for being with us
here on the dean show now tell us
briefly quickly many people already know
who you are but there are some people
that have just tuned in for the first
time and they want to know who is this
person and how's he qualified to talk
about the Bible well uh as you mentioned
in your introduction I received a master
of divinity degree from Harvard Divinity
School I was an ordained minister uh in
the United Methodist Church MH uh and
converted to Islam in
1993 okay now break this down for us
what is the Methodist Church well the
United Methodist Church is one of the
Protestant denominations in Christianity
is that the largest denomination uh no
at one time it was back in the 60s it
was the largest Protestant
denomination uh in America now it's
probably second second what's the first
uh Southern Baptist Bap Baptist and then
now then me Methodist will come after
that probably you were filling the
congregation the pulpit I mean you were
up there you were preaching and teaching
the Bible yes so you were would they say
or a Bible would they say a bible
thumper uh no I I was never a bible
thumper what does that mean when you say
the word well that's sort of a
colloquialism uh for someone who uh is
is constantly uh preaching from the
Bible uh and constantly filling his
sermons with Biblical verses Etc so they
can see your story hear your story on
how you accepted Islam but today we we
we're intrigued we want to know because
as I when I introduced the show we
talked about these scriptures that were
given Revelations to The Messengers and
intact The Originals we believe that
these were from the Creator but the
Bible how do we approach it what is the
Bible that we have today is this the
word of God well I think there's a prior
question we have to ask brother tell me
and that is which Bible which Bible
which Bible and when I say that I'm not
saying King James version versus new
revised Standard Version that's simply
different
translations now in the new revised
Standard Version they go back to earlier
Greek manuscripts than the King James
version did so you get a more authentic
uh translation but basically it's
different
translations but the reality is that
Christianity has never agreed on what
constitutes the Bible so if we look
there's two main parts of the Bible the
Old Testament and the New Testament if
we look at the Old Testament the
Protestant Bible has 39 books in the Old
Testament now to that the Roman
Catholics add several books those being
uh uh amongst others first and second
macbes uh tobat Judith ecclesiasticus
the wisdom of Solomon and baroo and over
and above those books that they add to
the Old Testament they add additions to
the Book of Daniel they add additions to
the Book of Esther that's the Roman
Catholic Bible Roman Catholic yeah so it
has a total of how many books in well
you'd have to add them up is that WR 77
uh no no well not in the Old Testament
okay uh in the Greek Orthodox they add
even more than the Roman Catholic doe to
the Old Testament uh so for example they
add a 151st s PM Protestant Roman
Catholic Bibles end with 150 Psalms but
they had
1501 uh first Psalm they add material to
the Book of Jeremiah that doesn't exist
in either the Protestant or the Roman
Catholic Bibles now we're talking about
that's the Old Testament we're sticking
to the old test okay got you they also
had third and fourth
macbes that's not found in the Roman
Catholic Bible and they add first Eis in
the prayer of manasse neither of which
is is found in the Roman Catholic Bible
so these are books that are in one Bible
they're not in the other Bible that's
right okay and then when we go to
something like the Ethiopian Orthodox
church we discover a radically different
Old Testament now the the Ethiopian
Orthodox Church uh had a a Canon of
about 46 books I think it was whereas
the Protestants have 39 in their Old
Testament uh and they uh included things
such as jubilees Ethiopian Enoch pseudo
Jo Josephus the Ezra apocalypse and
these aren't found in any of the other
Bibles that we've been talking about so
in terms of the Old Testament
Christianity has never agreed as to what
constitutes the Old Testament but
Christianity has also never agreed as to
what constitutes the New Testament M now
in the Protestant Roman Catholic and
Greek Orthodox Bibles they all agree and
say they 27 books to the New Testament
however the Coptic Orthodox Church adds
first in second Clement to the New
Testament giving a 29 book Cannon to the
New Testament the eeran or nestorian
church omits five books that are found
in the Protestant Roman Catholic and
Greek Orthodox Bible they they do not
recognize second Peter uh second and
third John Jude and Revelation you won't
find that those books in their new
testament um and the Ethiopian Orthodox
church again a fairly radically
different New Testament they say there's
35 books in their New Testament and they
include things like first second third
and fourth
cidos uh the first and second book of
the
Covenant uh Centos The Shepherd of
Hermes Etc books that are not found in
any other Church's Bible so Christianity
has never agreed as to what constitutes
the Bible and as to why that's the case
we can talk about that if you want or we
can go on with whatever other questions
you have tell us now it's
presumed that Moses he was the author of
the first five books is this true the
first five books of the Old Testament
Old Testament yeah the first book of
which is called Genesis by Christianity
well you know we know he didn't write
all of it because uh it says at one
point uh and Moses died so we know Moses
didn't write that you know that's been
sort of the
traditional uh legendary origin of these
five books that the this was the Torah
that God gave to Moses peace be upon him
so this is not the Torah but no this is
not the original Torah that was given to
Moses not the first five books of the
Bible the first five books of the Bible
Genesis Exodus Leviticus Numbers and
Deuteronomy What's called the Torah
today by Jews and Christians is actually
a cut and paste
compilation from earlier Source material
those sources usually identified as
being J E D and P J was written around
the year 950 BCE e around 750
BCE D in the 600s BC e p in the 400s and
500s BCE and they were finally put
together sometime around the year
400 these four sources in a cut and
paste fashion now Moses peace be upon
Him lived depending upon how you figure
your chronology from the biblical
dates somewhere from around 1600 BCE at
the earliest to around maybe 1200 BCE at
the latest
16002 to 1200 to 1200 somewhere in that
range is when Moses lived and these are
coming about the oldest part J is from
950 BCE so this would be how many at
least 250 years after Moses after at
least okay minimum yeah so it's safe to
say now and when did you start to learn
this information was this while you were
up on the pulpit preaching and teaching
or was did this come later in seminary
this was in seminary this was in
seminary you know there's a very
interesting verse in the Old Testament
that says that Ezra came from the baby
iian captivity back to Palestine around
the year 397 398 BCE and he brought with
him the law or the Torah because it had
been totally lost and forgotten in
Palestine amongst the Jews that remained
there most modern biblical Scholars say
that the Torah as we know it today not
the original Torah given to Moses but
the Tor as we have it today in those
first five books of the Old Testament
was a cut and paste compilation from
earlier Source material that was put
together in Babylon during the
Babylonian captivity and reached its
final form around the year 400 BC MH and
that this is what Ezra brought back with
him to
Palestine
so those are the five books what are the
books that come after these five well in
uh the traditional Jewish way of
addressing it there are three parts to
the Old Testament okay there's the
thorah which we've already talked about
then there's the neim or the prophets
and the Jews didn't agree until what
constituted the prophets until probably
the 2 Century BC and then there's the
kavim or the writings this would be
things like Psalms
Proverbs uh
Chronicles uh Song of Solomon Etc and
the Jews didn't really used to be
thought that they finalized the cannon
of what went into the kav at the Council
of jamy around the year 90 but more
modern biblical scholarship is now
saying that probably went on for a while
after the Council of jam maybe for a
century or two well the Roman Catholic
Church when it constructed its Old
Testament you know there weren't very
many people around who read Hebrew at
that point yeah and so what they did
they went to something called the
Septuagint now the Septuagint was a
Greek translation of Hebrew Hebrew
scripture and writing that were was done
by Jews in Alexandria Egypt around the
year 300 BCE so this was well before the
Jews had finalized deciding what was and
wasn't in their Cannon of scripture and
so these Jews as they were translating
they used a number of books that didn't
make it into the final Jewish set of
scripture well when the Roman Catholic
Church went to construct its Old
Testament and they used the Greek sep
they automatically accepted everything
that was in it which included these
books like first and second mcab judu
and toit uh that's not in the
Jewish uh body of scripture as we have
it
today when the Protestant Reformation
took over in 1400s 1500s the Protestants
basically said why are we fooling around
with this uh Greek septu agent uh you
know let's go to the the Hebrew text and
as a result of doing that they ended up
with an Old Testament that was shorter
than that that the Roman Catholic said
so tell us now for the Layman I mean we
want to know just like in a court of law
you want to bring forth the witnesses
you want to examine their truthfulness
you want to see their biography who
these people are can we trust them so we
can submit to whatever God Almighty is
telling us to submit to we don't as you
said what's allegedly called the Torah
okay okay these books now from what
we're understanding was not written and
could not have been written by Moses the
rest of the books now there maybe bits
and pieces Parts Etc that are part of
that original Torah that someone had
memorized that's possible how about the
books that follow do we know who these
authors are in many cases we don't we
don't in many cases we don't so we can't
bring them forward to cross-examine them
to know their life to know their history
no we can't we can't um you know books
such as 1 and 2 Samuel 1 and 2 Kings
Deuteronomy we know these books were
were written or authored by uh
Israelites that were part of what we
call today the deuteronomic school but
who they were specifically we don't know
their names we don't no this is a fact
anyone who wants to take the time to
research this stuff is known it's out
there yeah now the Jewish talmid or or
oral tradition that later got cified
and written down it gives legendary uh
authors to most of these books but uh
again modern biblical scholarship
doesn't accept that legendary stuff
you've learned most of this in in almost
all of it in seminary School sure okay
now tell us to go a little bit
further tell us if somebody wants to
look now towards the New Testament do we
have the same thing that's happening
here with the authors cuz many people
will say okay Matthew the Gospel
according to Matthew the Gospel
According to Mark The Gospel According
to etc etc these were the actual
disciples and this is probably the
majority of
Christendom they will say that this
these are the Disciples of Jesus who are
writing these books is this true yeah
this is what most Christians believe
okay but unfortunately it's not true
it's not true not true at all um let's
take the first book of the New Testament
the gospel of Matthew wasn't written as
far as We Know by Matthew who was a
disciple of Jesus we really don't know
who wrote it it was written around the
year say
8085 CE and it in turn is a compilation
of earlier sources uhhuh Q Proto Mark
and
M
um the first mention that we have
anywhere that Matthew wrote a gospel
comes from around the year
120 when uh one of the early Bishop said
uh Matthew the disciple of Jesus peace
be upon him uh wrote the sayings of
Jesus in
Hebrew and then later tradition
Associated that statement with the First
Gospel in the New Testament and
Matthew's name got a fix to it though
the Matthew we have is not in Hebrew it
was in Greek M and it's far more than
simply sayings of Jesus so there really
is no uh
logical or or evident evidence to link
Matthew's name with the gospel of
Matthew the same thing is true of the
other gospels John apparently written by
someone named John but whether that was
John the disciple of Jesus uh is is very
questionable the books that we do have
some known authorship for are are the
letters of Paul though um he's often
credited with writing more of those
letters than he actually did so even
though books by Paul some of them like
Hebrews Hebrews was not written by Paul
though Legend Associates Hebrew with
Paul but Paul did write Romans he did
write first and 2 Corinthians he did
write Galatians Now by scholarship at
the highest levels is this something
what you're saying that this is agreed
upon or is there now differences of opin
opinions oh you know you may find a
few um extreme members of the Christian
right who will dispute this but the most
all biblical Scholars of Mainline
Christianity uh acknowledge this now
going back quickly to the Old Testament
so we don't have anything
original of a
document yeah again have bits and pieces
bits and pieces yeah okay but the the
trick is knowing which bit and which
piece okay it's it's confusion here now
we go back to the to the New Testament
yes and we do and like I always try to
stress in and the shows I mean do we
believe that there is some of the word
of God in the Bible sure of course we do
but again the trick is is determining
which is which uh you know many of the
sayings attributed to Jesus in in the
gospels of the New Testament uh probably
many of them actually were said by Jesus
peace be upon him yeah but again which
were which weren't which were added
later which reflects the teachings of
the early Pauline church and not the
actual teach teachings of Jesus these
are the sorts of questions that biblical
Scholars wrestle with what about the red
letter addition is this now accurately
what Jesus said the Red Letter Bible
well it's it's what is attributed to
Jesus in the New Testament but whether
Jesus actually said all of those things
or not we we we really don't know have
you heard of this Jesus seminar sure
what did this this is a group biblical
Scholars and interested lay people who
get together and and vote
on which uh statements attributed to
Jesus they think he actually said mhm
and what did they did they come up with
a percentage number they they have yes
uh what was the percentage that they
well you know again this is subject to
to argument and dispute among biblical
Scholars yeah but uh suffice it to say
that we don't have absolute proof uhhuh
on any of these things what we have are
secondhand third hand four forhand
information uh and and we don't have the
chain of transmission yeah for this
information you know we don't have
anything that says uh I received it from
so and so who received it from so and so
who received it from so and so that
Jesus said this so that we have this
provenance that we can go check yeah
kind kind of like what we have a stdent
meticulous chain of narrations in Islam
where you have the person's biography
yes if he had a bad memory you throw
this
person's for saying out I mean you know
everything if this prayed five times
everything about this person you're
talking about the sayings of prophet
Muhammad peace be upon him and yes
that's called a Hadith and there's two
parts to every Hadith yeah there's the
Matten or the narrative MH you know the
messenger of God peace be upon him said
and then the rest of it but before that
comes What's called the isnad or the
chain and this is the chain of
transmission or the
provenance of this say you know
Abdullah Rahman received it from so and
so who received it from so and so who
received it from so and so who heard it
directly from the prophet chain link
yeah and you can go check who all these
person yes not only who they are but can
we ever put them at the same place at
the same time if we can't do that then
we're not going to trust that a okay
yeah this wasn't done here with the no
we don't we don't have any chain of
transmission what what what we have in
the gospels is
basically Hadith but without the
provenance now if we take this again and
we use rationale and we do what we do
now as a civilized society and we bring
it to a court of law and we want to
cross-examine the witnesses can we do it
well it's it's uh second third fourth
hand information okay so now a person
says you know what you got to have faith
brother yes what do you
say I
mean Faith uh is a wonderful thing yeah
but uh reason and rationality are also
wonderful things yeah and uh the two
really should go hand in hand so you
want to before you have faith in
something you want to have evidence to
back that it's knowledge-based faith is
that correct well certainly the Quran
always tells us you know reason reason
about this reason about this use your
observations Etc uh so yes I mean one
would prefer that reason and Faith
coexist and point to the same thing
together now do we have which we
actually do it's interesting because you
see this confusion here like I said we
are not trying to step on nobody's to
toes but this information is out there
and and it should be known now what we
have in the verbatim word of God the
Quran which is kept intact since it was
revealed memorized by millions all over
the world you have a verse there that
God Almighty Allah is saying that woe to
those that write the book with their
hands and gain a Mis misly price woe to
them for what their hands do right and
woe to them for what they profit from
yes but we see this going on yeah we we
certainly do and and we can see this uh
specifically in terms of some places in
the Bible where we know when something
was added we know why it was added we
even know where it was added give us
some examples now yeah if I can reach
over here to uh King James version of
the Bible yes and I'm I'm using this one
because King James version is from a a
late Greek Source
manuscript uh not an early one and this
is what you'll find in the King James
version for there are three that bear
record in heaven the Father the word and
the Holy Ghost and these three are
one and there are three that bear
witness in Earth the spirit and the
water and the blood and these three
agree in one now that's what you find
and that c what verse is that this is uh
1 John 5: 7 and8 yeah and that certainly
sounds like the Trinity doesn't it yes
okay but this is a late Greek manuscript
that they're translating from now if we
go to the new revised Standard Version
of the Bible which goes back to much
earlier
manuscripts and we look at the same
exact verse we find this there are three
that Testify the spirit and the water
and the blood and these three agree and
that's it MH everything about the Father
the Son and the Holy Ghost and being in
heaven and these three are one that's a
later Edition that does not exist in the
oldest manuscripts and in this
particular case we know when this was
added it was added around the year 380
it was added in Spain in a manuscript in
Spain and from there went into the Latin
Vulgate Jerome's translation of the
Bible into Latin and then subsequently
was picked up from Latin sources and
some late Greek manuscripts which is how
it got into the King James version but
the original there's absolutely no
mention of the father of the Son and the
Holy Spirit what's the one from I
believe it's Mark towards the end where
you have a bits whole chunks that not
it's the last part of Mark uhhuh the
last chapter of
Mark most of the early manuscripts end
with verse 8 this is chapter 16 verse 8
that's where it ends but in later
manuscripts it goes on from chap from
verse 9 to uh verse 20 talking about the
resur resurrection of Jesus mhm and this
is a a big later
addition uh to the uh these are known
facts how about the story of the adulter
and the adulteress oh and John yeah
doesn't exist in the earliest manuscript
the one where Jesus says How does it go
he said those uh those without sin cast
the first stone yeah wonderful story
beautiful Story the entire chapter is a
later Edition doesn't exist in the
earliest manuscripts that we have I mean
this is uh something profound I mean
it's amazing any sincere person what
should he do now what does he do he's
confused you've confused some people
some people knew it from the from the
get-go I mean where do we go from here
now well a person needs to study and
this is what I would advise any
Christian to do study your Bible and
study a good translation of the Bible
and the one I would recommend is the new
revised Standard Version because it does
go back to some of the earliest
manuscripts that we have uh um and then
get a good Bible commentary one that's
done by Scholars such as the
interpreters one volume commentary on
the Bible published around 1974 I think
it was or
1971 study these uh there's no
substitute for study become familiar
with your own scripture uh and as many
converts to Islam have discovered by
studying the Bible this was actually one
of the things that led them to Islam
this is amazing how could could someone
go further into uh
uh looking into this uh topic that we
had just discussed in one of your books
do you go more depth into this into the
issue of the Bible yeah in the cross and
the Crescent there there's a chapter
that talks about comparing the Quran
with the uh Torah and with the uh the
gospels and most of those things you
mentioned amongst more things they in
here many things are in there okay any
closing comments and suggestions
that um you can
give well I would say read carefully
study the Bible carefully and and don't
go on automatic pilot when you read yeah
uh so for example the the famous uh uh
lineage of Jesus that's given in the
first chapter of Matthew and he says so
and so beget so and so beget so and so
beget so and so and then he gets towards
the end of that
and he
says some very significant words he says
so all the generations from Abraham to
David are 14 generations and from David
to the deportation to Babylon 14
generations and from the deportation to
Babylon to the Messiah 14
Generations count
them there's not 14 in each set there's
14 only in two of the sets there's 13 in
one of the sets so read critically do
not simply read on automatic pilot and
don't just take everything what anyone
at you think about it and this is
something that you after going through
you know Harvard Divinity going through
Seminary that you we're exposed to this
but now someone doesn't have to go
through all that I mean luckily they got
to tune in they're getting to hear it
here so thank you for being with us my
pleasure brother thank you God Almighty
rewards you in abundance and like to
thank you for coming to the dean show to
learn more about Islam and Muslims and
to learn about some of these truths one
main thing that you can do to make it
simple is to humble yourself and ask the
one who is all knowing who knows what's
deep in your heart ask the one who
created you alone to guide you to make
things clear and it only be fair that
he'd guide you if you humble to yourself
and you ask and then do like our guest
said study put some time aside from the
material world and the rat race that's
out there you're going to die one
day you should be prepared for what's
coming next God Almighty as we said
earlier he sent Messengers and the last
and final messenger that s to mankind is
the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him
not as a Son of God not as the
right-hand man of God but as a teacher
just like Jesus was Moses was Abraham
was they were all teachers teaching us
how to get close to God but you're going
to have to to talk to yourself and
really ask yourself what's my purpose in
life why am I here and start to ask
these more serious questions and want to
get to know what the truth really is not
just sliding in and going with the flow
so these are things that you're going to
have to want to do on your own and we
hope that we can be of assistance so
come and visit us here every week on The
Dean show until next time peace be unto
you no speech is better than to do that
to call people to Allah and to do the
work no speech is better no nothing is
better than that is it true that if one
person and the Allah giving you the
ability to guide someone with Allah's
permission the Creator's permission that
is better than everything in this world
better than the whole world and
everything that's in it in in another
narration it's better than the best of
wealth but if we really felt that Eddie
Would we not be out giving da and this
is something that we encourage all the
msas all the da organizations the mus
for get this we want to print more we
give these to the non-muslims for free
for free for free we want our brothers
in humanity our brothers
in it's cold it's
lame everybody
sleeping I
arise and ask a lot to thinking me oh
you
see oh
you
know all the sins I
do I turn to you to forgive my sins in
my
[Music]
heart I'm your sinful
slave you're my loveing
Lord I'm the one runs
away oh