hello this is dr. Gerald Dirks formerly
the Reverend Gerald Dirk's in just a few
moments here on the Dean show we'll be
talking about my conversion to Islam
please don't go away this villa
hamdulillah assalamu alaikom which is a
greeting of peace peace be unto you
welcome to another episode of the Deen
show where we're here trying to help you
understand Islam and Muslims and when we
come back we have a very special guest
who was a former Christian minister he
has graduated with honors from the
prestigious Harvard University with a
master's in divinity started studying
the Bible at a very young age he has so
much to share with us today on the Deen
show and I'm so excited to have him here
with us so you don't want to go nowhere
we're gonna be talking to dr. Gerald
Dirk's when we come back here on the
Dean show you don't want to go nowhere
we'll be right back
Allah there's only one word muhammad is
his messenger Allah Allah
there's only one bed and Jesus was his
messenger no I did that maybe it maybe
it's just to break the ice a Salam
alaykoum well I like home Salam how are
you brother alhamdulillah thank you so
much for taking the time out of your
busy schedule to come and visit us here
at the Dina it's my pleasure brother we
have got to mention a few things about
you you were actually a former minister
a deacon ordained deacon in the United
Methodist Church and you have a master's
degree in divinity from Harvard
University from Harvard Divinity School
correct Wow
this is and the list goes on you are
were a preacher at many starting at a
young age you worked as a youth minister
ordained minister and the list goes on
you've we have some books also here that
you have authored yes we're gonna
mention through the books here you have
the abrahan the friend of God which is
this book here that's actually the
Abrahamic faiths the Abrahamic faiths
you have easy to understand Islam it's
another book here we have Muslims in
America the history yeah and you have
letters to my elders in Islam yes you
have understanding Islam now you've
wrote written a lot of books on Islam
and the crescent and the cross and the
cross and the crescent you like to write
huh so these are some of your books that
you've authored you you're obviously
very busy writing books you you are out
there trying to now mend the bridges
build the bridges to help develop a
better understanding between Islam the
Muslims and people of other faiths but
we want to hear about your story we want
to know why would someone who was so
high up in the ranks who had so much
knowledge of Christianity you know the
Bible well what happened let's talk
from your we'll get a little bit of a
history from a young age talk to us tell
us how you got involved in Christianity
and your parents and Excel sure actually
there's probably four parts to the story
yes and the first part would be sort of
my journey into the Christian ministry
yeah
the second part would be my leaving the
ministry mm-hmm
third part would be my years is what I
called in a typical Christian yeah and
then finally the fourth part my journey
into Islam but you asked about the first
part which is my sort of journey in to
the Christian ministry yeah I grew up in
a small rural community in Kansas where
the church was the center of community
life it was a small town of about 500
people we had three churches every
summer there were ice cream socials at
the church's chicken pot pie dinners
cornrows etc and the churches really
were the center of community life and
that was true for my family as well we
attended the local Methodist Church and
throughout my childhood I was very
actively involved in collecting my
perfect attendance pins from Sunday
school my Awards for memorizing biblical
verses etc and so by the time I reached
junior high school I was already
considering the ministry as a personal
calling and about that time during the
annual Youth Sunday I was always
selected to deliver the sermon and word
of that got around and before long I was
preaching at various other local
churches upon occasion at nursing homes
at various church affiliated
organizations etc how old was the set I
was probably about 14 when I started
very young as yeah and as I continued in
that direction and at age 17 I entered
Harvard College as an undergraduate with
a philosophy major which was gearing
towards some
and continued on in that direction
in 1970 actually 1969 I received my
license to preach from the United
Methodist Church in 1971 graduated as an
undergraduate and entered Harvard
Divinity School which is a three-year
program leading to a degree in Master of
Divinity in 1972 I was ordained a deacon
in the United Methodist Church and in
1974 I graduated with a Master of
Divinity from Harvard Divinity School
spent that summer as an interim minister
into rural parishes in Kansas but in the
fall of 1974
I left the ministry or at least left the
parish ministry I was still an ordained
minister but never again what I fill a
pulpit after the fall of 1974 which
probably brings us to the second part of
the story if you want to move in that
direction yeah tell us what will you go
into that why did you end up I mean you
were filling the pulpits I mean did you
have like a big crowd people would be
excited to come listen to you preach and
did you guys have a band how did that
work to describe this this atmosphere oh
well at the risk of sounding immodest
yeah typically everywhere I preached we
said attendance records you were like a
Jimmy Swaggart to the top of your
community maybe a Joel Olsteen Oh of the
the small little town or well I I don't
want to do comparisons but yeah suffice
it to say attend is typically
skyrocketed Oh when when I was behind
the pulpit so people know who you were
yes they wanted you they wanted a ticket
to get into this church to see and to
hear what you had to say because you had
knowledge you were a man of knowledge
amongst other things yeah okay so talk
to us now from filling the pulpits
people lined up wanting to hear what you
have to say from preaching the Bible
what now led you to leave the pulpit
well when people ask me
hey I usually see there's a long story
in a short story yes the short story is
a good seminary education the long story
takes a little longer but basically it's
one of the ironies of life that the
churches often take the most promising
of their young ministers and they send
them to really good seminaries and in
those really good seminaries such as the
one I was fortunate enough to attend you
are systematically exposed to the oldest
existing texts of how the Bible actually
once read you're exposed to the changes
that were made in those texts when those
changes took place why those changes
took place where are those changes took
place so once you receive that knowledge
and those changes by the way raise
serious serious questions about such
fundamental Christian doctrines as the
Trinity the sonship of Jesus Christ
peace be upon him the crucifixion event
and the doctrine of atonement and the
blood all of these come into serious
question when you look at the oldest
manuscripts that we have of what the
Bible wants that so that was one
consideration the other consideration is
that you are also given a very good
grounding in the history of the early
church now this is seminary school yes
this is at when it when Windows now
seminary school come is that that's
after Harvard now well first you do the
undergraduate I think four years
undergraduate at Harvard okay receive my
BA yes and then entered Harvard Divinity
School which is a Seminary yes and
that's a three year course of studies
leading to a Master of Divinity okay
gotcha
so the second thing you're exposed to is
the actual history of the early
Christian Church and in terms of that
you're exposed to the decidedly
geopolitical machinations that really
went into the
finding some of the fundamental
doctrines and dogmas of Christianity and
notice I said geopolitical machinations
not theological considerations not
religious considerations but political
considerations that went in you're also
exposed to the tremendous breadth of
knowledge the tremendous breadth of
opinion that existed within early
Christianity you know it was not
monolithic this is not kind of like the
Christian Fick well suffice it to say
there were many different branches yeah
to early Christianity now the branch
that survived basically into modern
times was Pauline Christianity this is
the Christianity that developed out of
the teachings of Paul or Saul of Tarsus
this is what's mainstream today yes
basically yeah but there were many other
branches to early Christianity some of
which survived for centuries before they
eventually died out and one of the
fundamental distinctions that we can
make is between Pauline Christianity
which was the Christianity that Paul
took to the Gentiles and the non-jews
principally in Europe but also to a
certain extent in Asia Minor and we can
contrast that with what's called the
Jerusalem church now this was the actual
disciples of Jesus yes and how they
practiced and what they believed and
there were decided differences between
these two groups but over time because
of geopolitical considerations the
different branches of Christianity was
sort of systematically eliminated one by
one and when that was done unfortunately
that was done often at the expense of
destroying books there were much
considered Scripture by some of these
branches of Christianity so a lot of
knowledge was lost in the destruction of
these books but these are the two
fundamental reasons why I left the
Christian ministry it really boiled down
to an issue of personal integrity
you know how can I stand behind the
pulpit on Sunday morning and preach a
sermon that I knew was at variance with
the actual taproot of Christianity
of course if I stood behind the pulpit
on Sunday morning and preached what I
had been taught in seminary I'd be
looking for a new job within a week yeah
so this conflict existed and as a result
to preserve my personal integrity
I left the act of ministry and pursued
graduate school in clinical psychology
and by the way approximately half of my
graduating class from Harvard Divinity
School walked away from the parish
ministry upon graduation so I wasn't the
only one is this kind of like the have
you heard a Bart Arum yes yes kind of
people also who have gotten engrossed
and really started to go deeper into
studying the original text and many of
them they come to the conclusion that
you have that you know a lot of this
it's not making sense it doesn't sure
sure and you know the biblical scholar
you mentioned is a good example of that
but there are many others as well can
you name a few that Pete's some people
who are out there that academics who
they recognize these people these names
oh well Bart Ehrman is a certainly one
but it's really almost any good biblical
scholar you know I mean all you have to
do is pick up a good Bible Commentary
yeah such as the interpreters Bible
commentary and begin reading it yeah and
you'll be exposed in the process to wait
a minute this text originally read this
way and this was inserted into the text
around the Year 380 in Spain this sort
of information is there it's available
to the public but they have to really go
out and study in order to find it that's
the thing how many actually want to take
the time to investigate instead of just
blindly going along with what everyone
else is going along yeah and it does
take a great deal of time yeah to try
and do it on here
uh-huh tell us did you feel now before
we move forward with the story did you
feel before you were engrossed with all
this new knowledge that you were
impervious to someone I was coming in
with other beliefs views opinions were
you really staunch in your belief that
it was unshakable before you got all
this new knowledge sure I mean I had
believed what I had been taught in
church in Sunday school probably just
like everyone else believes what they're
taught in church in Sunday school and so
it is a it's a real shock when all of a
sudden you're confronted with the text
that says you know and in these verses
of the Bible if you look at the original
text it raises real questions as to
whether or not Jesus was actually
crucified yeah that's a shock tell us
also who are you emulate who did you
feel you we all are emulating somebody
we have role models who are you before
emulating who are you trying to were you
trying to be like Jesus were you trying
to be like a certain pastor a preacher
well there are certainly ministers who
had an influence on me and ministers to
whom I looked up and admired certainly
the role model of Jesus peace be upon
him as is presented in the four Gospels
of the Bible it's a very powerful and
very positive role model yeah so that
was always there as well yeah tell us
now this is very interesting it's
intriguing I'm sure people's ears are
glued to the screen there's one thing I
just wanted to - have you comment on
because we want this though sincere and
honest people who are really wanting to
know the truth we want them to be able
to understand this but there are some
people who sometimes they just can't get
past certain things and they're looking
at your beard we want them to get past
the beard tell us about the beard for a
second well the beard for me is simply
following the example of Prophet
Muhammad who advised us in a hadith or
in us one of his sayings though that we
shouldn't trim the
we should let the beard grow so with an
advice from the Prophet peace be upon
him I let my beard grow
didn't Jesus have a beard well we assume
so didn't Moses have a beard well we
assume so beards beards were fashioned
at that time at that part of the world
yeah fashion has changed for people but
for what God has ordained through his
messengers as the teachers they were the
ones that we should be emulating yes yes
yes that is what remains state so this
is just a pious example of somebody
trying to emulate the best of human
beings these prophets yes would you say
okay so I hope that one person or two
they got passed again now tell us
did you believe earnestly with full
conviction that the Bible was the Word
of God Almighty before again you got
engrossed in all this new knowledge well
I think we have to define what's meant
by the Word of God yes there's two main
beliefs that run throughout Christianity
if you look at different Christians
there's one group of Christians
primarily those who call themselves
fundamentalists or the far wing of the
Christian Right who believe that the
Bible is word-for-word the literal words
of God but there's a second group of
Christians typically you find them
amongst mainline protestants and roman
catholics etc who say well the Bible was
inspired by God but it was funneled
through human beings and so their
personal historical context etc we have
to take that into account but the basic
message the inspiration is from God even
though we can't take things literally
word for word so you believe this
actually yes yes okay and now did your
obviously belief change once you finish
seminary school absolutely what did you
think then well again when you're
confronted with the variances and what
the original text said and what the
Bible says now as you read it as I said
before that that's a shocking experience
and it causes one to question you know
what else is here that has been changed
where I don't have the original text
anymore so I don't know that this change
is taking place yeah you know it's we
know what we know but how many other
places there may have been changes we
don't know now
did you lose a lot now we're going to
get into it and again people want to
know the big question why why did you
accept Islam why did you come to be a
Muslim we're going to get to that we
just want to lead to that did you ever
get people who came to you with a
confused look on your face about this
Trinity wanting to know a little more
adamantly how they could make this fit
God being obviously three and one is
that correct Father Son and the goals
but not three but one and somebody just
came to you say pastor did they call you
what was the type they call you pastored
or ever Pastor Dirk's can you please
explain to me I can't figure this out
who do I pray to it I pray to the Father
the Son the Holy Ghost did you have
these experiences not that often and the
reason for that again is you know people
are taught in Sunday school they're
taught in church from a very early age
you know God is three persons in one
substance mm-hmm that's the traditional
Protestant and Roman Catholic
formulation of the Trinity some of the
Eastern Churches say three substances
and one essence yes but this becomes a
catch phrase free persons in one
substance you don't think about it you
don't question it it's just sort of an
automatic response if you're asked about
the Trinity you say uh three persons in
one substance three persons being the
Father the Son and the Holy Ghost and so
people tend to accept this because it
was ingrained at a very early age mm-hmm
they tend not to question it or say now
wait a minute exactly what does that
mean and when people do those few who do
typically they find that they can't make
any sense out of it
in fact Athanasius who was in many ways
the father of the doctrine of the
Trinity is reported to have said very
late in life as he was dying that the
more he thought about the notion of the
Trinity the less sense it made to him
hmm
so this is a very confusing issue and I
think most Christians typically avoid it
yes I've just fall back on that early
learning of saying three persons in one
substance and if there's any questioning
that goes beyond that the response is
well that's one of the divine mysteries
what about the egg shell the yolk or the
water and it being three components one
part have you gotten this oh the sort of
thing about compare the Trinity to h2o
which of the steam water or ice mm-hmm
yeah I've gotten that the interesting
thing is that's actually officially a
heresy in traditional Christian thought
because you're denying the three persons
yeah most Christians who try to grapple
their way to some understanding of the
Trinity that goes beyond simply saying
three persons in one substance without
realizing it often drift off into what
the church has already condemned as
heresy in terms of their understanding
of the Trinity yeah
Wow this amazing we are almost out of
time for this session we're gonna have
to do a part two we let's get a few more
questions in again we're excited and we
want to know like what led up to finally
accept in Islam but we want to dig a
little more to find out some of the
things that unique experiences that you
did you had did you used to sing no I
know I see a lot of singing going on
terrible sense of pitch okay now tell us
what did you believe now you found these
thing you went from believing that this
the Bible which you were brought up
reading studying learning was the Word
of God correct and now you go through
this now what did you believe did you
believe that there was still some of the
Word of God in it and it was man
adding deleting yeah certain certainly I
believe there there was divine
inspiration in the Bible in places yeah
I also realized that there were
corruptions of the Bible in places I
believe very strongly that there was God
yes and only one God but I had no belief
in the divinity of Jesus Christ peace be
upon him
I had no belief and the doctrine of the
Trinity I had serious questions about
the crucifixion event so I was basically
from the time I left the active ministry
in 1974 until I became a Muslim many
years later what I called an atypical
Christian what's a typical question well
for me a typical Christian is someone
who doesn't believe in the divinity of
Jesus who rejects the notion of the
Trinity but still maintains a deep and
abiding belief in God and who still you
know picks up the Bible reads it for the
good moral instruction that is found in
it in many places and continues to study
the Bible continues for example for me
going down to the local seminary and
haunting the bookstore and purchasing
new books on recent archeological finds
having to do with various texts of the
Bible etc did you find yourself getting
in some dialog for the people who
believe staunchly that no no no Jesus is
God that he is the son of God also and
that he died for your sins since
obviously now you didn't you had the
antithesis of this you would believe
something opposite to it did you have
some conflict here with other peers or
members of your congregation or friends
or well no no real conflict in fact I
didn't attend church yeah very much at
all this is later on not that you know
once I left the ministry you know a few
times a year that would be it primarily
because I thought it was an important
family function to do but typically I
would go I would listen to a sermon I
would grit my teeth as I heard things I
knew we're not true give us an example
giving us an example well
the Trinity yes for example or the
divinity of Jesus peace be upon him or
are some of the statements that were
made about the crucifixion or the
doctrine of the atonement and the blood
you're sitting there just like how can
they preach this yeah exactly exactly
this is amazing well what it is a lot of
Ministers yeah
rationalize uh-huh and they say I know
what I mean when I say the son of God
uh-huh and I understand it this way in
sort of a metaphorical way or I
understand it as I believe the actual
disciples understood that term or as it
was understood in first century
Palestine however the congregation
probably doesn't yeah understand it that
way when that phrase is said did you
feel like this also went against your
very nature this inherent nature that
God put in all of us to recognize the
truth did you feel that something inside
you said no sure yeah and do you feel
like a lot of people that they that you
know you said a typical Christian I've
come across and these are our brothers
in humanity yes and we are to be the
kindness to them and we are to share
this way of life that we believe that
all the messengers of God they lived
which was surrender and submission
obedience sincerity and in peace which
is something one word Islam to share
with them we don't have to press the
little ties and you know try to twist
ours to accept it but if they want to
hey it's there for you
sure it's a way of life that God has
ordained for everybody take it if not
you can least understand us and we can
be brothers working together for some
kind of good now tell us before we got
like two minutes and we're gonna have to
do a part two this is so exciting
tell us now did you feel that you now
because a lot of these people you said a
typical I'll come across people like I
was saying that they are Christian but
they don't believe Jesus is God other
people believe that he's son of God not
God to some confusion here did you at
any time feel like you know what
confused now lost what do i do where do
i go from here
well I think there are a lot of atypical
Christians out there actually probably
more among the ordained clergy than
among the laity because the ordained
clergy has been exposed typically yeah
to at least some of this information
mm-hmm
in fact there was a study done by
Psychology Today magazine back in the
early 1970s tell us where they listed
what they considered to be ten
fundamental beliefs of Christianity and
they went out and surveyed the Christian
lady and found that on the average
Christian lady believed in about seven I
think it was of these ten yeah when they
surveyed the ordained ministry they
found they believed in about four uh-huh
of the ten yes oh you can see the
discrepancy this is not on it isn't it
that I don't know maybe in the 70s or
80s that the Anglican bishops they had
come to a unanimous decision that you
didn't to be a Christian you didn't have
to believe that Jesus was God also well
I'm not gonna speak for the Anglican
bishops yeah this is something that I
came across so it's not something odd
that people they also go with what's in
their nature and they reject this belief
that a man can be God that Jesus was God
etc that's true of a lot of people who I
would say are a typical Christian yeah
we are out of time we will inshallah
shall continue next week doing part two
because we didn't answer how you stumble
how you accepted submission to surrender
to the one God nothing in creation but
to the creator who made the Sun the moon
who created Jesus who Jesus prayed two
actions didn't it yes okay we could do
the part two and yes inshallah I'm
excited and I'm sure you're excited also
thank you just Alcala hi to my brother
and jaeseok Lahari thank you so much for
being with us I know you're excited but
you know what we gotta take a timeout
we've come and run out of time but next
week we're going to continue on and
we're going to answer this question why
Islam you got to hear a little bit about
the past about dr. Dirk's going through
Harvard University going through the
seminary and being on the pulpit filling
the crowds with preaching the Bible but
now he's a Muslim and you want to
why and we're gonna bring you his story
inshallah God willing thank you we'll
see you next week here on the Dean show
until then a cinema alaikum peace be
unto you I want to be Nina shape on your
dream miss him mana Wahine enough hijo
mr. Maruthi was only one thing I feel
anyone I heard
the only little bad Aladin is happening
you know be where the [\h__\h] y'all univee
hope this summer what he was all about
super Hanukkah Femina
you