come and see what everyone's talking
about
thank you for tuning in last week we
were discussing
with dr gerald dirks graduate
of harvard university you can hear his
story how he came to embrace the way of
life of all the messengers of god which
is that surrender and submission
sincerely obediently and in peace summed
up with one word islam
how he came to it on his special section
at the dean show.com and we have covered
part one you can go back
to look at that we're going to continue
on talking with him when we come back
here on the dean's show
the topic is jesus jesus peace be upon
him divine did he ever claim divinity
and we come back here on the dean show
part two to this
topic
jesus was his messenger
you know why i did that maybe maybe it's
just to break the ice
how are you good praise god all right
yes alhamdulillah all praise and thanks
to the creator of the heavens and earth
and we are continuing talking about for
those who joined us last week
you gave an overwhelming amount of
evidence supporting that
jesus peace be upon him never claimed
divinity we talked about this
we also covered that his disciples
didn't look at him as a god
and some of the earlier christian
groups at that time who believed in a
adoptionist
theory yes this is a theory or the
belief that
he was known as a son of god meaning a
righteous
servant of god is that how jewish
people at that time would consider sure
and and and
you know we could look at how this whole
missed notion yeah
uh evolve uh in first century palestine
if you said so and so was the son of god
everyone knew that what you meant by
that was
this is a very righteous and pious
and god-fearing individual and that's
all you were saying that's all you were
meaning
and like i say the jews in palestine all
knew this
the problem that arose is when
paul took his particular brand of
christianity
and began to teach it to the gentiles or
the non-jews
in asia minor and more specifically in
europe
and when these people heard the word son
of god
it meant something very very different
to them
than it meant to those jews back in
palestine who when they heard
it said yeah righteous man religious man
pious man
but when greeks heard it or romans heard
it
this conjured up images of the gods
coming down from mount olympus
impregnating human women and you have
someone like hercules being born
as the result so this was the
context in which these gentiles
began to receive the message that paul
was bringing to them
when they heard that term son of god or
they were saying oh yes
i know exactly what you mean we have our
own stories of the gods coming down from
mount
olympus and begetting children by uh
mortal women so they took it in a very
different direction
uh and that translation was never
appropriately made
from first century palestine and judaism
to europe so when you take a language
that's suited because did it not say
in what we allegedly have in the bible
that jesus is
have allegedly said that i have not been
sent
except to the lost sheep of the house of
israel yeah we have that statement in
the gospel of matthew uh it's a story of
a canaanite woman he's
he's uh traveling and a canaanite woman
comes up to him and starts shouting
after him
saying you know lord help me help me my
daughter is tormented by a demon
and we're told and jesus did not answer
her at all
and she keeps yelling and finally the
disciples come up to jesus
and say you know send her away she's
harassing us
and jesus said i was not sent except to
the lost sheep of the house of israel
and the woman finally approaches him and
says
you know please you know and jesus says
you know again i was sent only to the
israelites you don't take
the food that's meant for the children
and
feed it to the dogs yeah and the woman
supposedly says yes but even the dogs
eat the crumbs that fall from their
master's table
and so we're told in matthew jesus as
great as your faith
uh be it as you wish and her daughter
was healed instantly but the point is
that he was saying i was sent only
to the lost sheep of the house of israel
and the people of israel
the jews the people in palestine knew
what son of god meant
which was simply a righteous pious
man so if you take that
where he was only sent for the
children of israel and now they can
understand the language son of god
as you had given that evidence that that
meant a
righteous person and then you gave in
part one all the evidence
that this bible literally has sons by
the tons
yes and now you take this language
and the and you take it outside of his
immediate mission
and now we give an example for instance
if i take the slang for instance or the
language of this time
and maybe i take it back or forward 100
200 years and for instance
you tell a person to i need a lift right
so that would translate i need a ride
but somewhere else
they think of a lift yes elevator or you
know this guy's bad
yes now that can mean that someone say
he's a bad person but
in another slang he's bad he's like
awesome awesome yeah another one is uh
mary had a little lamb
you know if you take this literally and
this is just a story or
but someone would think that she
actually gave birth to a lamb so is this
kind of the same thing what we're saying
that you take a language that's suited
for this time
understood by this people and you bring
it over here by people who are already
worshipping sons gods apollo
jupiter he had a son mithras and now you
can see how this gets all
mixed up and continues absolutely
absolutely yeah
that is amazing so tell us now moving on
someone because we refuted some of the
evidence that someone tries to use
saying that jesus no no no no he he is
divine and
okay we're gonna just for the benefit of
doubt someone's
really sincere we hope and he has some
other verses
that are on the back of his mind we want
to clear these up
i and the father are one tell us
someone might use this and say look look
look he said i
and the father are one and they want to
support him being divine what do you got
to say
what does that mean aren't you and i won
one and a purpose huh yeah sure so i
mean to say my father and i are one what
what does that mean
you know it's a very ambiguous statement
yeah it can be interpreted a number of
different ways
yeah so no one comes to the father
except through me what does that mean to
the message that jesus taught
the same message that we as muslims
accept
that's makes sense how about he said
when they came to him and he said before
abraham was i hear this all the time
i am the famous i am now and they
compare it to the
old testament where god you know it
better than me with the
moses and tell them i am can you expound
on this
well they're doing a little pun
on words there but as far as the
pre-existence of jesus
yeah that doesn't imply divinity by any
stretch of the imagination
we as muslims believe that all of adam's
seed
for of all time had a spiritual
pre-existence in which we testified
to god about his oneness etc um
and so you know in that sense we're
we're all pre-existent
yeah so this is again one of those that
if you went
to an average layman and you took that
verse and you like showed it to him and
you said what do you get out of this
i don't think too many people are going
to get that jesus is divine or
you know one with god would you well
again it's a
we talked about in an earlier show
there's this concept in psychology
called the rorschach test
rorschach which is a series of ink blots
on cards you hand it to a person you say
what do what do you see in this well
whatever the person sees whether it's a
cloud or a
an animal or a butterfly or what have
you is something that they themselves
are projecting onto the inkblot
and so many of these verses you know my
father and i are one
and no man cometh unto the father but by
me
i am the way the truth and the life you
know these are all
rorschach cards yeah you're going to get
out of them what you're projecting into
them
what you really wanted to say you're
seeing that
but if you're going to use that
standardized across the board
it's not the same as some of the other
verses that are actually
unequivocal where maybe you can help us
out with that where he's clearly making
a distinction between him and god
oh there are a number of such verses can
you give us some of those
well sure we can uh
in fact why don't i enlist your aid here
brother
because i wrote a few of them down i
thought this might come up yes
and let's see beginning here where it
says
biblical verses supporting
subordinationism
if you want to just read off uh what
it's asking for ultra and look it up
real quickly
yeah you got here in mark 10 18.
okay let's see what mark 10 18
says and i'm reading from the new
revised standard version
jesus said to him why do you call me
good
no one is good but god alone
i mean that's that's kind of you know
not
leaving room for you know too much
interpretation i mean it's straight to
the point yeah
yeah tell us john 5 19. this is john 5
19.
uh jesus said to them very truly i tell
you
the son can do nothing on his own
but only what he sees the father doing
for whatever the father does
the son does likewise the son can do
nothing on his
own so if he's god he should be able to
do everything
sure i mean and he's saying that he
can't do nothing yeah he's clearly
saying he's subordinate to god
okay we don't need actually even your
master's degree to figure this out
right there yeah okay how about john 30
5 30 5 30. okay
again words of jesus supposedly i can do
nothing on my own as i hear i judge
and my judgment is just because i seek
to do not my own will
but the will of him who sent me
so he if he's god who's he being sent by
yes exactly
okay and again can do nothing on his own
john 14
28.
he is the maintainer you say that you do
not believe in jesus you have stepped
outside of islam you cannot be a muslim
and attended our faith to believe in and
love jesus christ
i would say this thing that you just
told me it's not in the scripture and
they would say a marginal note added by
scribe yeah okay we know that and i'd be
thinking
if you know this is not the bible why
are you preaching it as if it's gospel
truth
that's from hunger
okay you heard me say to you
i am going away and i am coming to you
if you love me
you would rejoice that i am going to the
father
because the father is greater
than i very clear very
unambiguous yeah john 20
i like this one this john 2017 i've
okay jesus said to her do not hold on to
me
because i have not yet ascended to the
father but go to my brothers and say to
them
i am ascending to my father and your
father
and to my god and your god
so so if there's any equivalence here
it's between jesus
and other humans yeah clearly he's uh
telling you that he's going to
your god and my god yeah and he's not
god
so jesus prays to god it says in matthew
14 23.
we have many many examples of that i
don't know whether it's worth uh
reading all of them but uh matthew 14
23 uh and after he dismissed the crowds
he went up the mountain by himself to
pray
when evening came he was there alone uh
and so forth and so on and the issue is
you pray to someone obviously you are
subordinate to them
yeah you know you are of a lesser status
certainly a lesser rank
how about if someone says you know what
and i've heard this before that he was
teaching
them how to pray to god to himself
well one could make the argument yeah um
he certainly did a lot of repetitive
teaching then
yeah how about
how would you explain and i've heard
this mention before also that
thomas had came and worshiped him said
my lord and my god
yeah very ambiguous
oh tell me surprise me with something
anything uh you um
you're pregnant my lord and my god
wait a minute what what uh what does
this mean yeah
you know am i simply doing an
exclamation
thomas sees jesus he thinks jesus is
dead jesus is right there
yeah he says my lord my god
what do we interpret from this yeah okay
so we have
overwhelming amount of evidence that is
clear unambiguous
equivocal showing that you don't really
even need a master's degree in theology
to see that hey
you know jesus is making a distinction
between him and god
oh absolutely and then you have other
verses that are you know
verses that are equivocal that they're
open to
many interpretations and why do you
think people that
they tend to want to take these
to really try to justify this belief if
you got all these other verses that are
clear
well again i don't i don't want to imply
that people are deliberately
yeah you know uh cherry-picking biblical
verses etc
i think the thing is you have to
appreciate people who have probably
raised in sunday school etc you know
they've been taught from the word go
a certain view etc and and when they
read
biblical verses that are ambiguous
they quite naturally and automatically
project onto them
the sort of story that they were taught
back in sunday school when they were
children
so it's kind of just wanting to stick to
what maybe your
grandparents forefathers you know you're
defending something that
you know you just want to really fit you
want to make sense and
i mean you does a person just go to any
bounds to
to do that you think no no i i and again
i think you're
implying more intentionality than there
often is
i mean people have been trained to
understand things in a certain way yeah
by virtue of their you know going to
sunday school every sunday as a kid etc
yeah going to vacation bible school et
cetera
and so when they read things they just
naturally read them with that
interpretation in mind
it's not that they're willfully
distorting
or willfully trying to prove a point i
think as much as it is they've been
trained
to look at it this way and they they
have never
stopped and checked themselves and said
now wait a minute
what are all the different possible ways
that this verse can be understood yeah
you know they're sort of going on
automatic pilot yes based upon how they
were taught
how the story was presented to them when
they were children
let's explain to the people now really
who jesus was and who god is
the true concept of god that i think if
any rational person sincere person
when he hears this it's just going to
fit with what god already embedded in
all of us
well we as muslims
believe that god is one
and and that's a very emphatic one
uh that he is incomparable nothing can
compare with him
that he is greater than anything you can
name
yes which is what was meant when a
muslim says allahu akbar
yeah god is greater he's greater than
this he's greater than that
you can't compare god to anything and as
far as conceptualizing god
you know we humans our minds are too too
minuscule too finite we can't ever get a
totally
comprehensive mental understanding of
god
he's beyond our human intellect that is
the greatness and the majesty
and the awesomeness of god but there are
some things we can say
god is unity god is one god is
love this is one of the names of god we
find in the quran
al wadud the loving god
is the loving god is
the uh compassionate ar ahmad
yes another one of the names for god
mentioned in the quran
god is the merciful arahim
another one of the names of god
mentioned in the quran
so we as muslims see god as
one as incomparable as being a
loving compassionate and merciful god
also a just god yes but a god that is
loving
compassionate and merciful and the true
nature of jesus
what does a muslim believe about this
messenger that jesus was fully human
but that obviously as a prophet and
messenger of god he stood in a special
relationship with god
one that those of us who are not
prophets and messengers
are not fortunate enough to have yeah
but someone who has been given a direct
revelation from god
certainly is standing in a closer
proximity to god than
than the rest of us mere mortals are now
you had talked about identity in
your story how you came to islam how can
someone overcome because i'm sure
when they hear this it just makes good
old common sense again
you graduated from harvard with a
master's in divinity but i don't think a
person needs that masters in divinity to
just use the tools that god has given
them when you
just define who god is and his pure
oneness
his absoluteness in that oneness and his
mercy and
it's not something that is too
complicated you don't have to
do all this mental gymnastics to try to
make this fit
but now it's the identity now a person
is nervous this is like
what i know this is what i do this is
what you know they feel like this is me
and now they get stuck with this how do
they overcome this
well first of all let me reinforce what
you were saying
the quran says that the the signs of god
are all around us
you know all we have to do is stop take
a look around us and begin to
contemplate
the world that god has created and we'll
find god
you know the quran talks about abraham
peace be upon him
reasoning to monotheism by naturalistic
observation
by studying the the skies and he was
able to reason
apparently as a youth of about age 14
reasoning to absolute monotheism
so yes the signs are all around us
and and those signs are available to
everyone now what happens when a person
gets
to that point of saying god is one one
and only
one but boy you know i've been raised as
a christian
yeah you know what are my parents gonna
say
what are my aunts and uncles gonna say
what about my friends
uh and and my goodness do i have to
start wearing this
you know slip like dress and wearing
something on my head and you're not
wearing any of that no
i'm not wearing it do i have to change
my name yeah
no the answer is no to all of those
things and
and i would say to our christian friends
who are listening who may be thinking
about islam
you know don't don't let an over
zealous muslim tell you you have to
change your name you don't
or tell you you have to dress in middle
eastern clothing you don't
or try to convince you to be more of an
arab than an arab or more of a pakistani
than a pakistani
or more of an indonesian than an
indonesian you don't have to do any of
that
you know if you're born here you were
raised here you're an american
that's your identity nationally and
culturally
keep it actually you probably don't have
much choice in that matter
but keep it there's nothing
antithetical about being an american
in national cultural identity and being
a muslim
and religious identity you know muslims
have been in this country for centuries
and have contributed significantly to
this country for centuries
so there's no conflict between being an
american
being a muslim rest assured on that
point
tell us you have some of these books
wonderful books you've
authored so many books and where can
someone
to read some of your material where can
they go
and if they want to contact you to come
out maybe and speak at a public lecture
how can they get a hold of you
the easiest way is to contact me at my
website which is dirksonlinebooks.com
and there's a way there to contact me
with email
also a way to order each of the books as
well as the
one book my wife has written which one
do you recommend for somebody
with just the basic knowledge to start
with
yeah someone who is just wanting to
learn about islam yeah
you know the starting level i would
recommend the book that you have your
hand on
that's which is uh understanding islam
understanding islam a guide for the
judeo-christian reader
and that would be the book now someone
who's wanting to tackle
issues like is jesus peace be upon him
divine
which we talked about this time or was
jesus crucified which is something we
talked about previously
um i would suggest that they get either
the abrahamic faiths that's this one the
abrahamic
faiths yeah where both of those issues
are talked about
or the cross in the crescent okay where
both of those issues are talked about
that's this book
yes all right and you can visit our
brother dr
gerald dirks at dirksonlinebooks.com
yes and we hopefully inshallah god
willing
we look forward to doing some more
programs with you because
everybody's just gotten to benefit so
much from the knowledge that you have
we'd like to thank you once again for
being with us my pleasure thank you god
almighty
the creator of the heavens and the earth
allah rewards you in abundance
and we'd like to thank you for being
sincere
wanting to know the truth and i hope
that you continue on your mission
searching for the truth
for those of you who already know what
the truth is
try to every day live it and be the best
example that you can be
so other people can see you living the
truth and they can see it in your
character and your behavior
and then they're going to want to ask
questions what are these people on
they're honest they have great integrity
they don't lie
they don't backbite they don't gossip
they stay away from gambling from
fornicating from all the
different evil vices around the world
and then they'll come to know that
you're living the way of life that all
the messengers of god lived
you're being humbly and sincerely
submissive
to the one who created you not to a man
to a woman but the one who created
man and woman not to the son to the moon
but the one who created the sun in the
moon
you're praying like jesus prayed you're
praying like abraham prayed you're a
muslim
one who has consciously surrendered and
submitted
to the one god in arabic that's a muslim
it's very simple it's unique way of life
is for everybody
and we hope that you got to benefit and
you keep coming back until next time
assalamu alaikum peace
be unto you
he created the universe
he
he is his messengers
to all his creatures
of the great dangers
of worship in
there is none greater
than the creator