the former two DIVISION ONE WORLD
CHAMPION.
>> And I would also see them, you know, uh
pray together.
>> Keep forgetting we believe in Jesus. We
believe that he's the Messiah.
>> Just think about this, right? Think
about this.
>> I I don't want you to think that I'm
attacking you or anything. I'm not.
Okay?
>> Nothing is random, brother.
>> Jesus says he doesn't know. If he
doesn't know, then he can't be God.
That's a good That's a good one. Yeah.
Saw the the
>> My Lord and my God.
>> Yeah. My Lord and my God. And he
worshiped him. And then after that, what
does he say?
>> Clear passages.
>> And then he says, "Follow me, brother."
He says, "Follow me."
>> Yeah. You Yes. You have to follow the
messenger.
>> In Islam, what is the truth?
>> He was an apocalyptic prophet, teacher.
It literally says that God is with us.
When you say the Bible, what do you
mean? You said the disciples went to
their brutal deaths because they
preached
>> he's going to die for us in front of the
tree for every
>> Where does it say he's going to die in
front of just wait this is just look you
think you think Jesus is God do I think
Jesus is God
>> the
assalam greetings of peace. We have an
exciting episode from you. I'm telling
you, this one is going to be very
informative, enlightening, and
this special guest friend of mine,
un
the former two division one world
champion. And when I hear my name being
chanted, I feel invincible. And that's
why I fight with all my heart and all my
soul.
>> You might know him as the Burmese python
nang. He's a professional mixed martial
artist,
renowned as a former two division world
champ. And we'll also have Liiano who's
also a known by as Orthodox Muslim. He's
an online content creator
on different social media platform. He
loves discussing Islam, Christianity,
the Bible like I do. We want to show the
world. Our goal is to show how Muslims
and Christians can come together
respectfully
having meaningful conversations seeking
to understand to grow and to pursue the
truth with sincerity.
>> Good evening,
>> Ang my man. How are you? Liviano, how
are you guys doing?
>> Good,
>> good, good, good, good. Thank you for
having me.
>> It's good to have you guys. H uh so
how was the fight an last night?
>> Good. Good. It was a it was a quick
trip. Um my friend Vince Vince Turk, he
is an Iowa wrestler and he was supposed
to fight I mean he he fought last night
but that the original opponent pulled
out on Wednesday night and he was like
so depressed and so sad.
>> Mhm. And then I get a call from him the
next day saying, "Hey, I'm on a flight
to Iowa right now. They have a
replacement."
And and so yesterday morning, you know,
we flew out and praise God, you know, he
he won his fight and and I was till the
last moment till we were walking out, I
was just hoping, hey, I hope this guy
doesn't run away.
>> It was like his pro debut, you know, and
fighting.
>> That was his first pro debut fight.
first debut. Yeah.
>> Yeah. So, tell us pulled out.
>> Tell tell us a little about yourself for
the audience now that follow MMA, UFC,
and some of these other organizations.
You're a two-time uh division champion.
>> Yeah, I'm a two-weight division champion
for one championship. Um I won the title
in 2017
and then uh I held it uh consecutively.
I defended the belt. Um and I
>> Yeah.
Uh I don't like to talk too much about
myself, but yeah, that's uh
>> so Libyano, me and uh I consider as my
friend over here, we've been uh having
great conversation. He's part of the
Destani crew. He's got a lot of
met a lot of the Dustani brothers. Yeah.
>> Oh, that's awesome.
>> Well, to be honest, I I don't know.
>> Yep. Islam, you know, all these boys are
like I'm very close to them. The reason
what drew me to them was the fact that
they were so disciplined, so humble
and so hardworking, you know, and I
thought to myself, man, these are just
great genuine people and and I would
also see them, you know, uh pray
together
and, you know, break bread together. and
they had a very very tight-knit uh group
and I'm part of the kill cliff uh team
and Abdul Lazi Islam all these you know
great guys uh Shafkat Rakmanov was there
too you know and all these uh great uh
fighters
um they they are the the ones that drew
me you know to wanting to learn about
Islam. Yeah, I was just with one of uh
with they had the uh Hhabib's uh guys at
at my gym. We were just And the guy uh
they knew you. The brother also trained
with you. Tiger, he's got his fight
coming up.
>> Oh yeah.
>> Tiger. Muhammad.
>> Yeah.
>> Yep. Yep. Tiger. All these guys are
amazing.
>> He had great he had great great things
to say about you. Yeah.
>> They're just they're just like
>> humble, hardworking, and you know, just
the opposite of what you think fighters
are, you know. Mhm.
>> Liiano.
>> Yeah. I was I was actually just going to
say that to be honest, I don't know much
about MMA. I don't follow those
organizations, UFC, MMA, but I'm
interested in knowing like how um how
you got to the place that you are. Um
how does that how does that even happen
for someone?
>> Well, I started training in 2004.
I started training, you know, mixed
martial arts. I started training
jiu-jitsu. I started training kickboxing
and then just fell into MMA, did my
first fight and I was like in love with
it. And it was one of those things I
thought, man, I'm going to do this as a
hobby, you know, cuz I it's so I have so
much passion for it. As a man, you got
to follow your passion, you know, like
we have we have these desires that are
given to us and I feel like it's uh very
important that we we live them out.
>> Mhm. How what do you
>> short I became like I I went all in on
it when I was like man it's either now
or never and you know and I and I was
able to um fight in you know one
championship and made a name for myself
there
>> that's awesome man that's awesome
>> and you're you're you're a Christian
right?
>> Yes. Yes. I you know like
for so at Kilcliffe we have this Bible
study with uh Nate Mark Horn and and I I
I grew up as a Christian. I grew up as a
Christian and my my faith was kind of
wavy you know when I went to college and
I actually went into a college uh school
that's called Andrews University and
it's a very very Christian school. It's
a 7th day Adventist school and and my
faith kind of wavered there, right? And
I was lost for a little bit. And and
then um when Nate Maloy started uh this
Bible study, I read the Bible from the
beginning to the end. And I realized
that
some things about it really hit me
about, you know, understanding God and
his love and and and um and it's very
different from what the the church that
I went to told me about, you know, God.
And so when I when I read the whole
Bible, I understood his love and and the
gospel a lot better, you know,
>> and and
Christianity like is very very
soft. And they're very soft because of
because of grace in my opinion, you
know, but and it's it's also soft
because people go to church, they they
don't really read the word. they they
they just take it in from what people
tell them. And I think unless you have a
personal relationship with God and
unless you read the word of God for
yourself, you won't understand that.
>> And I I wanted uh like we've been having
nice back and forth. We having great
discussions, you know, I really enjoy
talking with you. I wanted to also now
give you give you an opportunity because
you mentioned you want to learn more
about Islam and give you opportunity to
go ahead and ask anything about Islam
and to show the world to show people
that we can have these discussions you
know with the intention to excel to
learn to grow and Libyano here is also
he's somebody who's um been studying the
Bible for a long long time so we can go
ahead and and and just open it up any
questions that you have about Islam we
can discuss and and just uh with the
intention to learn to and to seek the
truth.
>> So in in Islam, what is the truth?
>> What is the truth?
>> Yes. What is the truth?
>> Well, um I think that's a little bit
vague, but uh the truth in Islam is what
Allah subhana t reveals with God, who
you know as the father, who you call the
father. Whatever he reveals to us
through his messengers and through his
prophets, we ought to accept it with
pure submission. That is the truth for
us.
>> So whatever is revealed through the
prophets, right?
>> Yeah. Whatever God reveals to us, we
ought to be in submission to and believe
in it wholeheartedly.
So the messengers are the truth. The
revelations, the Torah, the Gospel, the
Quran is the truth. Heaven and hell are
true. The unseen is true. Angels are
true. God is true. All of these things
are true because he's revealed these
things to us.
>> And and and you guys follow the Torah,
right? You guys follow the Torah as well
or what is your
>> Yeah. So the Torah in Hebrew means the
law. Uh God, Allahh God who you know as
the father revealed the Torah uh to
Moses um on Sinai uh as a law and a
guidance and a light for the Israelites.
Um, and this law was transmitted and
followed by the Israelites
um, for hundreds of years with prophets
coming to redirect and correct the
children of Israel every time they fell
into sin. As you told me, you read the
Bible, so you must have seen that God
would reveal to them. He would send them
prophets. They would go away from God.
They would worship idols. They would
worship Bal and false deities. And God
would send them prophets and prophets to
redirect them back to his law, back to
his word, back to the Torah. They
distorted his law. They corrupted his
word. And he would send them prophet
after prophet after prophet to redirect
them. He sent them Jesus the Messiah.
And he sent with him the gospel, the
good news. They rejected him. And after
that he sent the prophet Muhammad as the
seal of prophethood and as the
integration of the Gentiles the final
message where now all the Gentiles are
included in God's kingdom and that's the
coming with the Quran. So we believe in
the Torah and the Gospel and the Quran
but we believe the Torah and the Gospel
have been distorted through their
transmission. In what way is the gospel
distorted?
>> Meaning that uh Jesus came with a
message preaching the good news of the
kingdom of God.
And he preached repentance, forgiveness
through repentance.
>> And he taught parables, had teachings.
There were oral teachings in his
ministry which according to scholarship
might have been around 3 years. And so
in this ministry he said a lot of
things. He did a lot of things. He
preached his message. And when he went
away according to he was crucified
according to us. He was assumed up into
heaven. When he went away, his teachings
were transmitted from person to person
and they were orally transmitted for 40
years before anything was written down
about him before we have the gospel of
Mark written in the year 70. And so
through oral transmission, you know, you
have a period of 40 years of
storytelling of things going word of
mouth from person to person. You have
things that are added to, taken away
from, exaggerated, things that are
completely fabricated and made up. And
you know, we know, we know this to be
the case because there's several first
century documents that are under the
genre of gospel literature that don't
make it into the New Testament, like the
Gospel of Peter, Gospel of Thus, many
other texts that have Jesus say and do
things that Christians don't believe he
said and did. So, what this shows us is
that early on
uh people were saying things Jesus did
Jesus said when really he didn't do
those things or he didn't say these
things in that way it's corrupted
so which parts are corrupted in in in in
the things that he said
is it too many or is it too many to to
to to like which exactly is the one that
you you think is corrupted
>> yeah that's a good question so uh This
kind of goes in a little bit deep into
historical Jesus studies and what
scholars and specialists and the certain
criteria they use today to discern
between what likely goes back to the
historical Jesus, what doesn't go back
to the historical Jesus for so from a
nonQuranic perspective because as a
Muslim if you ask me well how do you
know which parts are true and which
parts are not true? Well, from um an
Islamic perspective, we would say, look,
God reveals the Quran and we verify the
Quran to be true independently. And
because we verify the Quran to be true
and preserve or and preserved, then we
use the Quran as a criterion and an
authority to discern between what is
true and what is not true. From a
non-Islamic perspective, historians have
criteria, the historical critical method
that they use to discern between what
likely goes back to Jesus and what
likely doesn't go back to him. Okay? And
so the I think the the the best
reconstructed
recoverable message of the historical
Jesus is that he was an apocalyptic
prophet teacher who came who carried on
in the same message as John the Baptist,
his cousin. He preached baptism for the
forgiveness of sins. He preached uh uh
forgiveness through repentance. And he
preached uh repentance for the kingdom
of God is coming near. And we believe
the kingdom of God that he preached
about is the coming of Islam.
So we don't believe that he preached
that he would die and rise for our sins
and he would be and because he would be
we're all somehow saved by his blood an
eternal atoning sacrifice. We would say
that that's a a doctrine that was
developed later by uh Paul of Tarsus and
his ideology.
But but it's it's written all over the
the Torah and the Old Testament how how
Jesus is is is
going to like Jesus is going to die for
our sins, right? Like it's it's said in
u
when when uh when Abraham sacrificed
Isaac,
the Lord himself willide a lamb,
>> right? And then you have John the
Baptist saying, "This is the lamb of
God." Right? So these aren't
>> these to me aren't like um
>> these are the Old Testament testifying
of Christ.
>> So yeah, the the past Sorry. Go ahead.
>> Go ahead.
>> No, I don't want I don't want to cut you
off. I thought you were finished with
your point.
>> Okay. Yeah. like like when when uh like
in Genesis 3:15 when the man fell,
he said, "I will put enmity between you
and the women." Talking about the the
the Satan and between your offspring
>> and hers, right? And your seed will
crush his head, right? Like the women's
seed, there's only one woman seed,
>> right? And that is born of virgin birth
and that's Jesus. And it even in the
fall of humanity like Jesus is
is is
testified and is foreshadowed and is
prophesied.
So
>> okay
>> I to to to say that it's made up like I
I would say there there are a lot of
strong evidences you know like in in
Micah
it says that a ruler will come a ruler
over Israel will come out of Bethlehem
and Jesus was born from Bethlehem you
know and then and then in Isaiah there's
a verse that says for us a child is born
to us a son is given and the government
will be on his shoulder and he will be
called wonderful counselor, mighty God,
everlasting father, prince of peace.
Right? These are to me these are
Isaiah was hundreds and hundreds and
years before Jesus was born. Right? And
it's a promise of a wonderful counselor
and it even says a mighty God, an
everlasting father. So,
and that's why that's why I believe in
the divinity of Christ,
you know.
>> Okay. Well, let let's let's deal with
one at a time because there was you
mentioned so you me you mentioned
Genesis 3:15
>> uh about the seed of the woman. You
mentioned um uh Abraham, the binding of
Isaac.
>> Uh you mentioned Micah chapter 5 uh
ruler from Bethlehem. And you mentioned
Isaiah chapter 9 verse 6 uh uh where the
child will be born and the son will be
given his name will be wonderful
counselor mighty God everlasting father
prince of
>> peace
this guy's really paying attention
>> he's he he's got all the points go ahead
>> yeah I just want to keep up with make
sure I don't miss anything so uh you uh
with the binding of Isaac okay you
mentioned that look you know uh God uh
you know he gets this revelation to
sacrifice his son. And so he goes up on
the mountain and he's about to sacrifice
him and God intervenes and he
says,"Abraham, stop." And uh it says,
"The Lord will provide a lamb." Uh so
yeah, this let me
>> let let me uh
because I don't want to I don't want to
uh say the wrong things because I want
to actually use the actual text because
I don't want to be misinterpreted,
right? like uh
>> sure.
>> So, so the thing it says to me like in
in in Genesis 22:2, right? Then God
said, "Take your son, your only son whom
you love, Isaac, and go to the region of
Mount Mariah." And
>> was he his only son?
>> He's not. Absolutely not.
>> But it says his only son, right?
>> Yeah. But that's the same verbiage
God used on on on on John 3:16.
Sent his only son,
>> right? So it doesn't say Yeah. So it
doesn't say only son in John 3:16.
That's the English edition. It says
monogenous in Greek, which means a
unique son
>> or a one-of-a-kind son. It doesn't say
>> Genesis 22:2 says,
>> "Yeah, but yeah, just continue with your
point that that was just a side point."
Yeah. Genesis 22:2.
>> Genesis 22:2. Then God said, "Take your
son, your only son, whom you love,
Isaac, and go to the mountain of Morai.
Sacrifice him as a burnt offering on a
mountain. I will show you."
>> Like, why?
Why would God says your only son whom
you love? This is the first mention of
love in the Bible.
>> This is the first mention of what?
>> Love. Love like love. Even Adam and Eve
there's no no mention of love. This is
the first mention of love. So this
Genesis 22 must have a significance, you
know.
>> Okay. So yeah, continue with your point
or was that it that's that you wanted to
add?
>> Oh yeah. Yeah. But yeah, this is what
I'm trying to say is that it it point it
points to something deeper, right? Like
Mount Mariah. Where is Mount Mariah?
>> Sorry.
>> The region of Mount Mariah.
>> Yeah, it's uh in the Middle East
in in Jerusalem.
Yeah.
>> And and and so
you see in Abraham like Abraham had to
sacrifice his only son
in Jerusalem.
>> Yeah, I understand. So I I just want to
Yeah, I just want to respond to this
point. So you you you brought up the
binding of Isaac, right? So where God
tells uh Abraham to sacrifice his son,
his only son. Okay. In reality, he
wasn't his only son. Okay. But uh let's
go with that. That's a side point.
>> Why would God say that though? Like why
would God say only?
>> Yeah. Just just let me Yeah. Just let me
just finish my point if that's okay.
Yeah. So uh he says to sacrifice his
son. Uh does he does the son die?
>> Nope.
>> Okay. So what if a Muslim came and said,
"You know what? This points to something
deeper." This is about Jesus actually
not dying, being saved from the cross.
Therefore, here this points to something
deeper. It's typology, typological
fulfillment. And therefore, Jesus didn't
really die on the cross. Why can't I say
that?
Because because he says it says here
because it says here
do not lay a hand on your on on the boy.
He said
>> do not do anything to him. Now I know
you fear God because you have not
withheld from me your son, your only
son.
>> Yeah.
>> So he didn't he didn't die, right?
>> Yeah. Ab Abraham looked up and there was
and then it says on this mountain the
Lord so Abraham called the place the
Lord will provide and on this and to
this day it is said on the mountain
>> of the Lord it will be provided
>> right because the Lord provided a lamb
instead of his son that's what happened
that's what the Lord provided
>> so so my question was
>> okay
>> yeah so my question was if this is how
prophecy works you know you just take a
vague
story from the Old Testament and try to
fit in your fulfillment. We'll say,
"Okay, no problem." Um, here the son
Isaac represents Jesus as a typology.
We'll say, "Look, Isaac was close to
death, but he was saved at the end."
They say just like Jesus was close to
death, but he didn't die. He was saved
at the end. Therefore, the Islamic view
is true. This is a fulfillment of the
Islamic view. Why can't I say that?
Because because of what the things that
Jesus said.
>> Jesus said,
>> right? So then so then that's begging
the question, right?
>> Yep. And then because of the things that
Jesus said, Jesus said that
destroy this temple and I raise it again
in three days. Right. And he said things
like like the like the snake um the son
of man has to be lifted up like the
snake. Right.
>> Yeah. I I understand all that. But
remember, you're trying to prove that
Jesus is fulfilled.
When you say, "Well, Jesus said," you're
no longer trying to prove Jesus was
fulfilled. Now, okay, this is called
circular. So then, where in the Old
Testament is he fulfilled? That story of
the binding of Isaac doesn't actually
say anything about a dying, rising
savior, future Messiah who will die for
our sins. It's just a story about Isaac
being binded, right? And the covenant
starting. That's it. Then you moved on
to Micah 5:2 where it says, "A ruler
will be born in Bethlehem." But if you
read the context, the ruler who will be
born in Bethlehem is a Davidic king who
will destroy the Assyrian threat and
remove them from the borders of Did
Jesus destroy the Assyrian threat and
remove them protect the borders of
>> Jesus's kingdom is a spiritual kingdom.
>> Yeah, I understand. But but you you
mentioned Micah 5:2 as a prophecy.
But when you want to read a prophecy,
you want to read it in context. The
context of Micah 5:2 is that there will
be a Davidic king who will be born in
the Davidic dynasty and he will attack
and fight off the Assyrian threat and
protect the border of
the context of Micah 5.
>> Where does it say that?
>> Here, sure, I'll read it. So, if you go
to Micah 5, we'll read from verse two.
It says, "But you Bethlehem Ephrada,
though you are a small
uh small among the clans of Judah. Out
of you will come for me one who will be
ruler over whose origins are from old
from ancient times. Therefore Israel
will be abandoned until the time when
she who is in labor bears a son and the
rest of his brothers return to join the
Israelites. He will stand and shepherd
his flock in the strength of the Lord in
the majesty of the name of the Lord his
God and they will live securely for then
his greatness will reach the ends of the
earth. for he will be our peace when the
Assyrians invade our land and march
through our fortresses. We will raise
against them seven shepherds, even eight
commanders who will rule and the land of
Assyria with the sword. The land of
Nimrod withdrawn sword. He will deliver
us from the Assyrians when they invade
our land and march across our borders.
The remnant of Jacob will be in the
midst of many peoples like dew from the
Lord, like showers on the grass, which
do not wait for anyone or depend on any
man. The remnant of Jacob will be among
the nations, in the midst of many
peoples, like a lion amongst the beasts
of the forest, like a young lion among
flock of the sheep, with mauls and
mangles as it goes and no one can
rescue. Your hand will be lifted up in
triumph over your enemies, and all your
foes will be destroyed in that day,
declares the Lord. Okay. So here you
have there will be a ruler who will rise
up in the Davidic ancient Davidic
dynasty and this ruler will protect the
borders of from external entities like
the Assyrians.
Did Jesus protect the borders of from
Assyrians?
>> Uh no he did not himself.
>> Okay. Okay. So then how could this be
about cuz look you can't take one part
and say okay someone will be born in
Bethlehem. Jesus was born in Bethlehem.
Okay that that doesn't work that way
because the prophecy isn't that someone
will be born in Bethlehem will be a
Davidic ruler who will be born in
Bethlehem will be it doesn't even say
he'll be born in Bethlehem. He'll be
from that clan, right? And he will rule
be a Davidic king and he will uh uh
attack and get rid of the Assyrian
threat. And this happened in the 500 BC.
And this happened a long long time ago.
This is like 500 600 years before Jesus
was even born.
>> Right? So then we can't really say this
is a prophecy. It's like, you know,
going to a random verse in the Bible and
say, "Oh, look, someone will be born in
Arabia."
>> Oh, that means it's the prophet
Muhammad. But then you have to read the
whole context, right?
>> Yeah. But I I don't think I don't think
everything is random, right? Like I
don't think I don't think anything in
the Bible is random, right?
>> Because
>> I understand
>> like like you read John 8, right? John 8
John 8:18 it says I know I know like I'm
taking verses, right? But it says
um in John 8 like
it says Jesus answered like this the
Pharisees challenge him and says here
you are appearing as your own witness
your testimony is not valid. Jesus
answered even if I testify on my own
behalf my testimony
>> he says my father is another w my my
father is another witness he testifies
for me because in your law it says you
require two witnesses right? No, it says
it says, "But if you have no idea where
I come from or where I am going, you
judge on human standard. I pass judgment
on no one. But if I do judge, my
decisions are true because I'm not
alone. I stand with the father who sent
me." And then the part that the part
says, "In your own law, it is written
that the two testimony um uh the
testimony of two witnesses true. I'm the
one who testify for myself and the the
other witness is the father who sent me.
Right.
>> I understand. But remember you're you
said that there are prophecies in the
Old Testament that verify the New
Testament. Now verify that Jesus is a
dying, rising savior, Messiah.
>> You you keep quoting me passage from the
New Testament. Okay, that's fine. I know
that in the Gospel of John, Jesus says
those things.
And and and I'm not saying necessarily
that Jesus is not a true messenger or
Messiah. We believe he is. We're just
saying that there's no notion of a
dying, rising savior, Messiah who will
die for our sins. And the the you said
there are prophecies for that in the Old
Testament, but actually I'd beg to
differ. I'd say there are no prophecies
for them in the Old Testament. You also
mentioned Isaiah 9:6 where it says for
unto us a child will be born, a son will
be given or actually it says a child was
born. It doesn't say he will be born. It
says a child was born and a son was
given. Right. And he uh and he will be
called wonderful counselor, mighty God,
everlasting father, prince of peace.
Right.
Sorry.
>> In 9:6.
>> Yeah. Isaiah 9:6. Yeah.
Yeah. So there if you had the context of
Isaiah, Isaiah is living in a time again
there's an Assyrian threat and God
promises in the previous chapters that
he will there will be a a a young woman
who will give birth and that son who she
will give birth to will become the king
of Israel and he will defeat the
Assyrians and bring peace to the land.
Okay? and he will take over the throne
of David. That that child was born as
king Hezekiah. It says in the book of
Kings that under him he brought peace
and security to the land. He was the
prince of peace.
Okay. Um the language used in Isaiah 9:6
is the same language used for King
Hezekiah. And King Hezekiah was the
child that was born in the time of
Isaiah and became the king of
he was the wonderful counselor. And when
it says mighty God there,
>> sorry.
>> Yeah, it says mighty God and everlasting
father and prince of peace.
>> I I got you. So he he's called the
prince of peace. Mighty God, the the
Hebrew mighty God, Elgabore in Hebrew is
used for a ruler or a king. It's not
something reserved for God alone. So for
example, if you go to Ezekiel 34, it's
calls the mighty warriors of Egypt, the
mighty gods.
>> The mighty warriors of Egypt are called
the mighty gods. Okay? If you go to
Psalm 45, the king of Israel called God,
your throne, oh God, is forever and
ever. Okay? Uh Moses in Exodus 7:1, he's
called God and Aaron his prophet,
Elohim.
Okay? So the king of the ruler is is
also called God. If you go to Exodus,
the judges of are called gods or judges,
Elohim. Okay. If you go to Psalm, the
angels are called gods.
Uh okay. If you go to uh John chapter
10, he says, "Doesn't it say in your law
I have said ye are gods?" Even the
Israelites are called gods. Okay. So
then contextually here, the son who will
be born, who will be a child, who will
be called mighty god because he's a
mighty ruler just like the Egyptians are
called mighty gods. Hezekiah, you know
what the word Hezekiah means in Hebrew?
>> What's it mean?
>> The word Hezekiah in Hebrew, the name
Hezekiah means mighty God.
So King Hezekiah was literally called
mighty God. His name means mighty God.
He mighty God. He was a ruler of He was
a prince of peace and he sat on the
everlasting throne of David. He's the
father of eternity. That's the context
of Isaiah 6 or Isaiah 9. And if you keep
reading Isaiah 9, same thing. This
person will be a Davidic king and he
will remove the Assyrian threat.
Do do you think it's just threat? Do you
think it's just Do you think God just is
just so concerned about the Assyrian
threat?
>> Well, yeah.
At the time, yes, that that was the
problem at the time. God was concerned
for his people in Jerusalem because at
this time the kingdoms divided into two.
There was a southern kingdom of that's
where Jerusalem was. And then there was
a northern kingdom. That's where the
tribe of Ephereim led. Okay? At this
time, the southern kingdom, Jerusalem
was in threat. That's Isaiah chapter 7.
You read from verse one. Okay. God sends
Isaiah to King Ahaz and he tells him,
"Don't worry. I know you guys are
scared. I know you guys are worried. I
am with you. I will take care of the
Assyrian threat. They will not take over
your land. So God is promising them over
and over again. And when you go to
Isaiah 7:14 where it says the young
woman, it's translated in your in your
New Testament, the young virgin will
give birth. It doesn't actually say
young virgin. says the young woman in
Hebrews um uh Alma which means the young
woman will give birth to a son and she
will call him Emanuel. Now this is
quoted in the New Testament to talk
about Jesus and his virgin birth. And
Christians believe oh yeah look it says
the virgin will give birth. That's Jesus
but it doesn't say virgin and the
context doesn't even fit. The context is
about
>> Jerusalem being worried.
>> Muslims believe that it was virgin birth
too.
>> Yeah. So, we believe in the virgin
birth, right? 100%.
>> But we don't think Isaiah 7:14
has anything to do with Jesus and his
and Mary's virgin birth because we have
to read things in context. Isaiah 7:14
is about
>> Who else is virgin birth?
>> Yeah. Go ahead.
>> Who else?
>> Who else is born of a virgin birth?
>> Nobody. Just Jesus.
>> Yeah. So 14 is talking about him. Isaiah
7:14 has to be about Jesus. Uh 7:14
doesn't say virgin. It says the young
woman.
>> Uh okay. In my version, it says the
virgin will conceive.
>> I understand that. That's why I told you
the English translates it. And I'll tell
you why the English translates it that
way. Because when the author of the
gospel of Matthew quotes it, he changes
the word in Greek to parenos which means
virgin. But the Hebrew says,
which means the young woman. For
example, the same word is used in
Proverbs chapter 30 or chapter 32 to
talk about a prostitute. A prostitute is
called the same word. Are you telling me
that the prostitute is a virgin then?
No.
>> She's a young woman,
>> right?
>> And then and then God with us, right?
And you're saying that Emanuel is not
not God with us.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Emmanuel means God with us.
Just like Isaiah means God saves. Just
like Gabriel means the might of God.
Just like Ishmael means God hears. Just
like Hezekiah means mighty God. Elijah
means Yahweh is my God. Jerusalem in
Jeremiah 33 is going to be called Yahweh
my salvation. The Lord is my salvation.
So yeah, names. Somebody could have a
name. Uh it's called a theophanic name.
It has a it's God and a word beside it,
right? So, we could say um your name is
Hezekiah, mighty God, but that doesn't
make you God. It talks about the God of
the child, right? So, it says he will be
called Emmanuel as a
>> Do you think all these are random? Do
you think all these names? It's not It's
not It's not random. The name is a
symbol.
is a symbol to show that what God is
with Jerusalem. That's the whole point.
And that's what God does with many of
his prophets. For example, if you go to
prophet Hosea,
prophet Hosea was sent to the northern
kingdom. God tells the prophet Hosea to
marry who? To marry a prostitute and to
sleep with her. Why? To show that
has married idols. Have they have
cheated on God? That's a metaphor,
right? They cheated on God with foreign
god with with foreign idols, right? So
then he says, "To show you how I feel
when you guys cheat on me, I'm going to
tell prophet Hosea to go and marry this
prostitute. This prostitute is going to
go and sleep with other men. That's how
I feel when you worship other gods."
Then she gives birth to his children.
And he commands Hosea to name his
children names that give messages. For
example, he names his daughters ami
which means not my people then he says
because they are not my people
>> do you understand so then the name of
the child is prophetic
but it doesn't mean that the child
himself is God doesn't mean Jesus
himself is God if you go to uh for
example Isaiah chapter 8 the next
chapter it literally says that God is
with us Emmanuel
does That mean that God was with the uh
Israelites in Jerusalem sitting down
with them? Did he incarnate uh in
Jerusalem with Isaiah? No. We God is
with us. He's with us. He supports us.
He's protecting us. Okay? It doesn't
mean that the child himself will be God.
And actually read the next passage. Go
to Isaiah 7:15.
That's that's the actual prophecy. Read
it.
If you have it in front of you, he
>> Yeah. He will eat he will he will be
eating curds and honey when he knows
enough to reject the wrong and choose a
right. For before the boy knows enough
to reject the wrong and choose a right,
the land of the two kings you dread will
be laid waste.
>> Exactly. So that's the prophecy.
>> No, no, no.
>> Okay. Go ahead.
the the the the Lord will bring you the
Lord will bring on you and your people
and on the house of your father a time
unlike any since Ephine broke away from
Judah he will bring the king of Assyria
right and then Assyria
>> right
>> the Lord's
>> right so remember that's the prophecy
right there it's 15 before the young boy
knows knows how to reason, knows how to
tell between good and right, these two
kings will be destroyed.
That's the prophecy. When did this
happen? It happened in the book of
Kings.
>> But but then then who is this? Who who
is this?
>> It's King Hezekiah.
>> Okay. So
>> I told you don't think it's King
Hezekiah.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah. So you don't think that the the
virgin you don't believe that the virgin
birth is foreshadowed in Isaiah 7:14?
>> No, no, it doesn't say virgin. Why would
I believe it's it's foreshadowed when it
doesn't say it? The the prophecy is
clear. The verse 15 says, "Before this
young boy knows how to reason between
good and right, these kingdoms that you
guys are worried about will be brought
to an end. They will be destroyed."
while they were destroyed in the year
500 600 BC.
So then we know that young boy was born
before that.
It's literally the very next verse,
right? So all of these quote unquote
prophec prophecies are actually don't
point to to a a dying rising sess.
>> Sorry, you cut off. Okay. So, I was
going to say you don't believe that this
prophecy is about Jesus.
>> No. No. There there's no reason to
believe that.
>> Okay.
>> Is there anything uh Libyano? I'm sorry.
Is there do you want to follow up on
that? Uh Ang, is there anything else you
wanted to jump in on this? Please go
ahead.
>> Yeah. like the the the like I'm not a
I'm not a biblical scholar like like uh
and I don't have any um like any
theology background. I just read the
Bible for what it is. And
and I I see a lot of
like testimony of Jesus in the Bible.
And and and I say all the a lot of the
stories in the Old Testament point to
Christ.
And for me, right, for me personally,
Jesus is who he said he is in the Bible
in in in Matthews and in John.
Like
>> who who who did you say that he was?
>> So So you talk about Jesus as a
messenger, right? He's a messenger of
God.
>> Yeah.
>> But but Jesus in fact is to me Jesus is
the message, right? Jesus
John 3:16 said, "For God so loved the
world that he gave us his one and only
son that whoever believes in him shall
not perish but have eternal life."
>> And and why do you
>> I understand why why do you believe the
author why do you believe the author of
the Gospel of John is telling you the
right information about Jesus?
>> Because I trust the Bible.
I trust that
>> when when you say the Bible.
>> Yeah.
>> When you when you say the Bible, what do
you mean? Which the 66 book Bible?
That's the Bible that I have right now.
Right. And and I've read the the second
book of the
>> And and and
>> who who decided who decided that that
would be the Bible?
like like I don't I don't really want to
get into that because because because
that that is a a longer topic, right?
That that is a who decided like
the
>> Yeah, because you're saying you're
saying I trust who Jesus says he is now.
Yeah, of course we also trust who Jesus
said he is. The problem is how do you
know what Jesus said? Because if you
read
eyewitnesses and and his
>> which eyewitnesses
>> like
Matthew.
>> Okay. Where does where is the eyewitness
testimony of Matthew?
>> Like like let's let's think about this,
right? Like you have all these
disciples, right? The the the 11 plus
one more disciples. Like why would these
disciples talk about
why would they proclaim the gospel and
the resurrection of Jesus
and
for no gain, no worldly gain and and and
and cruel death? Like why why would they
why would they die for this?
>> So so that they didn't is the point.
You You're saying that Peter didn't die?
There's historical
>> record. No Peter. No, Peter. Peter died.
Peter died. I'm saying you said the
disciples went to their brutal deaths
because they preached your understanding
of what Christ taught. We don't have any
evidence of that. The the earliest
source, the earliest attestation of the
death of Peter comes from a text called
First Clement written in the year 95.
And all it mentions is that Peter died.
That's it. Doesn't say why, how, where.
Just says Peter died. And all these
other crazy martyrdom stories like
people being crucified upside down and
being stoned. All of these things come
from the 4th century.
Sorry,
>> the early the early um the early
Christians being coliseum is not is not
a historical evidence which No, no,
we're talking about the discip remember
the I know early Christians were
oppressed under Nero and under other
emperors but you said why would the
disciples who had witnessed the
historical Jesus go to their death
preaching your understanding of
Christianity. They didn't. They went to
their death preaching our understanding
of quoteunquote Christianity. They were
Muslim. This is our belief. And
historically speaking,
there is an early schism in the church
between Pauline Christians and
Jamesonian Christians who followed the
brother of Jesus who was set up as a
successor in Jerusalem.
I would I would I would I would I would
I would uh I would give you a a
a what what the Bible says about
the
to to to go against what you said. But I
can't because you don't you don't trust
the the the Bible that
>> No, I you could you could give the
Bible.
>> Yeah. Where where does the Bible say
they went to their the disciples who
witnessed Jesus went to their death for
preaching Jesus died on a cross for our
sins?
No, I'm like like not that part. the
part that says like
um how how Jesus
like the divinity of Jesus by by like it
is you you you see it with the with
Thomas as well when he saw the the
>> my lord and my god
>> yeah my lord and my god and he worshiped
him right and then the disciples
worshiped him
>> and and
>> no the disciples didn't Thomas didn't
worship him and the disciples didn't
worship him where did they worship him
28:17
when they saw him they worshiped him
>> they they worshiped him right the word
there is proo which is respect given to
somebody of status for example if you go
to Daniel
2 46 it says that king Nebuchadnezzar
went down and worshiped Daniel
is Daniel God
>> yeah but but but Jesus This is God
because it says then Jesus came and said
all authority in heaven and earth.
>> I know brother but just just one sec.
You said that he's worshiped therefore
he's God.
That's wrong. But when I showed you how
worship there is not worship God. You're
saying no he's God therefore he's
worshiped.
>> Do you see how that's circular?
>> Yeah. No, it's not circular at all
because now I'm going to give you um
in in in
so so think about think about who can
give life, right? Who can give life?
So,
so
in the Quran
in the Quran they don't believe in the
resurrection.
>> Correct. We believe in the assumption.
>> I mean you you we don't believe in the
resurrection, right? Like
>> Yeah. I I said we believe in the
assumption of Jesus. He was assumed
without death
>> into heaven.
>> Yeah.
>> So So John 11:25 says
>> Jesus said to her, "I am the
resurrection and the life. The one who
believes in me will have life even
though they die. Whoever lives by
believing in me will never die. Do you
believe this? Right.
>> Yeah. Whoever believes in the prophets
never dies but lives.
>> No. No. No. No. The prophets are are
messengers, right? What I'm trying to
>> messengers and who whoever believes in
them doesn't die. He'll have eternal
life.
>> Jesus is is the message. Like Jesus is
the message,
>> but he says he's a messenger.
>> He says he's a messenger.
>> No, he he says, "I am the way."
>> John John 17:3.
Now glorify your son that your son may
glorify you for you gave him authority
over flesh that he may give eternal life
to all those you have given him. Now
this is eternal life that they may know
you father the only true God and that
they know Jesus Christ your messenger.
>> Yes. Jesus Christ who you sent, right?
And and
>> so he's a messenger.
>> And just think
>> No, no, no, no, no, no. And think about
this,
>> brother. The whole brother,
>> come on. Come on. It It says there he's
a messenger.
>> No, no, no, no, no. The whole the whole
Old Testament is about God sending us
his son so that we can be saved.
>> Where does it say that in the Old
Testament?
>> The whole everything, every single
story.
Okay. Okay. So, show show a verse. Okay.
If it's then where's the It should be
easy to show then if if that's the case.
>> It's very easy.
>> It's very easy to show. You can read
Matthew's
verse 25,
>> right?
>> No. No. You said the Old Testament. No,
no. You said the Old Testament is all
about God sending his son for us to be
saved. That's what you said.
>> Where is that in the Old Testament?
>> Yeah. Look. Okay. All right. So, so
Genesis 3 when they fell, right? Like
>> Jesus is is in the story,
they
>> Jesus is in the story.
>> Yes. Jesus is in the story.
Then the men and the
>> Then the men and the women heard the
sound of the Lord God as he was walking
in the cool of the mo of the day. They
hid from the Lord God among the trees of
the garden. Trees plural. Then the Lord
God said to the man, "Where are you?" He
answered, "I have heard you and I was
afraid because I was naked, so I hid."
>> Okay?
>> And and so where's Jesus?
>> Who told
So just think about this, right? Think
about this.
Where did they hide?
>> Behind the trees. Behind the trees.
>> Behind the trees.
>> Behind the trees. It's not one singular
tree. It's plural.
>> Yeah, it's right. It's many truths.
>> And why did they hide?
>> Because they were ashamed.
>> Nothing is random, brother. Nothing is
random. And I'm telling you,
>> yeah, it's not random. They were Come
on, brother. What? You're reading things
that don't exist. Yes, they were
ashamed.
>> He was hiding. They were hiding behind
trees.
>> I'm not I'm reading God.
>> Where is Jesus, brother? I'm
>> God's I'm reading God's word.
And and where did Jesus have to die?
On the tree. On the Calvary tree. And it
wasn't one, it was three.
>> So where does it say here that somebody
has to die for our sins?
>> Just just listen, brother.
>> You you went to a passage in Genesis
that mentions trees and you said, "Oh,
look. Jesus died on, you know, there was
>> three trees. It was him and two other
men being crucified beside Oh, it's
Jesus. But brother, the text doesn't say
that. Text doesn't
>> it doesn't just say somebody will die on
a cross.
>> Just listen to God talk. Just listen to
God talk.
>> Don't don't don't talk out of his words.
Like God is telling you something here.
He's going to die for us in front of the
tree for every
>> Where does it say he's going to die in
front of just wait where does it say in
Genesis that God is going to die in
front of a tree
>> to to to undo the sin to undo sin?
>> Okay. But but where in Genesis does it
say God will die on a tree
>> through one through one man sin came.
Through one man sin came.
>> That's what that's what Paul says.
That's what I understand. That's what
Paul says. Through one man sin came. I
understand that.
>> Yeah. And I'm telling you,
>> but where in Genesis does it say God
will die on a tree,
>> brother. Brother, you you have to see
these things. You have to see these
things when God
>> No, you're just telling me to force
You're telling me to force a Christian
reading into the text. Why would I do
that?
>> I'm not.
>> Okay. But I'm not forcing you to see.
I'm just saying. and and and then and
then like this this crucifixion thing it
came during the Romans rule
thousands of years later it it in in in
Roman rule and they nailed Jesus Christ
to the cross naked for everyone to see
not on one tree but three trees like you
can't
>> but where but where does it say in
Genesis that somebody will come he will
die for our sin
on a tree.
>> It's the same. It's the same way Jesus
talked in parables.
>> So,
>> okay. But so then it's that's called
begging the question, brother.
>> That's called begging the question.
Again,
>> it is
>> why did Jesus talk in parables?
>> Yeah.
>> Why did again that that that assumes
that Genesis has anything about Jesus in
mind? I'm saying you must first believe
in Jesus. Brother, just just listen.
>> Okay?
>> I could go to a passage, for example, in
the Old Testament that mentions Arabia,
that mentions 10,000 men,
that mentions a camel. And then I say,
look, Arabia, camel, 10,000 men. That's
talking about the prophet coming back to
his city in Arabia with 10,000 men to
take back Mecca from the polytheist.
Wow. You see, you have to just have to
read it, brother. You just have to see
in between. Well, I could anybody could
do that, brother. And then you you could
take out any kind of theology, brother.
Where does it say I'm asking you where
does it say anywhere in the Old
Testament that God will die for our sins
on a on a cross? Does it say that
anywhere?
He said it to Abraham. He said God
himself will provide.
>> Yeah, he did provide. He provided a lamb
instead of Isaac.
>> He did provide happened already.
>> Foreshadowment of Christ that he is
going to provide for
>> again and then I'll and then I'll go to
a ver okay then I'll go to a verse and
I'll say look this foreshadows Islam.
You see look you have dates you have
>> you have here you have Arabs mentioned
here you have the city of the prophet
mentioned there. This foreshadows Islam.
So now what? You see it doesn't work
that way. That's not that's not how you
inter that's not how you do
hermeneutics. The tech you have to show
clear.
>> Okay. You know what? For forget about
the Old Testament cuz I it's I don't
think there is any clear passage that
says anything like that. Okay.
>> Yeah. But there is a way Jesus said he
was speaking parables, right? Like
>> Yeah. Sure. I understand. Jesus speaks
in parables. Sure. He speaks some
parables. says,
>> "I praise you, God, Father, Lord of
heaven and earth, because you have
hidden these things from the wise and
the learned
>> and revealed them to the babes,
>> you know, children."
>> Yes,
>> right.
>> Yeah, I know. I understand.
>> I understand. So, no, no problem. Let's
go to the clear. So, hold on. Listen,
ank Let's go to the clear verses. The
clear verses that you don't need any
mental gymnastics to do. Do you think
Jesus is God? This is not this is not
mental gymnastics, brother. This is
>> just look. Do you think you think Jesus
is God?
>> Do do I think Jesus is God?
>> Yeah.
>> I I think I think he's there from the
creation. He he's there. He's he's there
from the beginning.
>> And and and and he is he is he is
>> he is the word of God. He is God. And he
is
>> the message of God.
>> Okay. He Okay. He is God. Sounds
>> sounds good. So if he's God, he should
know everything, right?
>> Jesus Jesus in the in the flesh
when he became human is very different
from Jesus in revelation.
You you have to understand,
>> right?
>> As as a human, was he God?
>> As a human, he's 100% human, right?
>> Is he also 100% God?
Look, Jesus is 100% God.
When he
>> I'm asking as a human, brother.
>> No, as a human, he had limitations. He
>> So, he wasn't God as a human.
>> No, because everything that Jesus does,
>> Peter does in Acts.
>> He heals, raised dead.
>> Okay. Like we we when we
>> Yes.
>> So, you're you're telling me God stopped
being God?
Because
>> for a bit of
>> is that what you're telling me?
>> Because God himself will provide the
lamb, right? And Jesus
>> I understand, brother.
>> John says in John,
>> right?
>> I understand all of that.
>> But you have to understand who Jesus is.
I'll read you Revelations 11:17.
>> I'm the first and the I'm the Alpha and
the Omega, the first and the last. I was
dead and now I'm alive forever the more
and I hold the keys of Hades. Yes,
brother. You know all this. You know all
this.
>> Yeah, I I already I already know it,
brother. I have it memorized, brother.
Trust me. But I'm asking you.
>> You are the learned. You are the
learned. You are the
>> I'm the learned.
>> Okay.
>> You are the wise and the learn. Yes. You
are 100% the wise and the learn. I I I
promise you that, brother. You are the
wise.
>> Okay, brother.
>> No, no, no problem, man. But here's the
thing. I've never I've just read the
Bible for myself. I don't have theology
background. I'm just a fighter that
>> Mei Me neither, man. Didn't go to any
formal school. Now I just read the
Bible, man. Me, too. We're in the same
boat.
>> You are wise and learn. You know, all
these background stuff. I don't I just
read
>> I'm saying it's has nothing to do with
background stuff, brother. I'm show
Listen, I I don't want you to think that
I'm attacking you or anything. I'm not.
Okay? I I I know I know you're you're
amazing. You believe in what you believe
in. You have faith in it. It's
commendable. All right? It has nothing
to do with background or not. I just
here's the thing, right? I just want you
to see that look, there is clear
passages clear that don't need you to be
wise and learned or don't need you to
have any kind of education. They're very
clear passages that clearly just show
that what you think is right is not.
Jesus says he doesn't know.
If he doesn't know then he can't be God.
Jesus says how when someone asks him how
do I enter eternal life? He says have
you kept the commandments? He says why
do you call me good? Because he called
him good teacher.
>> Only one is good my father in heaven.
>> And then after that what does he say?
These are clear passages.
>> And then he says, "Follow me, brother."
He says, "Follow me."
>> Yeah. You h Yes, you have to follow the
messenger. You can't not follow the
messenger. Of course, we believe that
>> I am the way and the life. It all
coincides.
>> We believe we believe we believe that,
brother. We believe. But brother, you're
not getting. Yes, we believe all the
prophets are the way and the life. All
of them.
Every single one of them. That's true.
He's the way. He's the life. You have to
follow him. You have to follow Moses.
You have to follow Abraham. You have to
follow all of No other prophet says, "I
am the way and the life."
>> They don't. Okay? They don't need to say
it for it to be true.
Okay? For example,
not every prophet said, "Hey, I'm a
prophet."
Not everybody, not every prophet said,
"Hey, by the way, I'm a prophet." But we
know they are a prophet.
>> But Jesus says he is a lamb.
Okay. So, okay. So, so listen, brother.
This this lamb stuff that you that that
you keep talking about
>> is a later development from John's
gospel. That's why it doesn't exist in
Matthew, Mark, and Luke. Okay. So, how
convenient. You start with Mark, our
earliest gospel, then Matthew, then
Luke, and by our latest gospel, you have
this idea of Jesus being a lamb. This
doesn't exist in our earliest documents.
>> Okay? So it's it's it's a it's a it's a
theological development that wants Jesus
as a sacrificial lamb. It's a it's a
it's a it's a a literary device. Okay.
Jesus has not never considered himself
to be a lamb that's going to die for our
sins. Jesus preached the kingdom of God
to come and repentance. Okay. That's
that's what Jesus preached. For example,
have you heard of the prodigal son
parable?
>> Yes. I I love that parable. What's
what's the parable? Can you tell me what
it is?
>> I I um it's about um so so there's two
sons.
One son
>> tells a dad, you know, I want my my my
share of the inheritance. You're pretty
much dead to me. And he and he goes out
and and squanders his his wealth in
prostitution
and and ends up with nothing, right?
ends up with like
ends up lost and and and and he's in the
distant country and he's like um
and and there's a famine and now he's
hired to work feeding pigs when feed you
know for for for guy feeding pig is like
unclean,
>> right?
>> Yes. And and what's even worse is he he
he he's he's thinking about eating that.
He's eating thinking about eating the
food that that um that the pigs are
eating, right? And then he he he thinks
he thinks to him he gets his thing and
what he thinks to himself and that
>> it's better to go back to my father, you
know, and tell him that I've sinned
against you and I've sinned against God
and maybe he will take me back, right?
And as soon as he goes back, his father,
you know, is waiting for him this whole
time.
>> And his father gives the best rose and
kills a fatten calf.
>> Okay. So the the right so the moral of
the story is if you go far away from God
and if you do the worst of things
>> as soon as you're ready to repent
and are sincere and you seek forgiveness
God will forgive you without requiring
anything. Yes,
that's a good that's a good one. Yeah.
>> Okay. Do you believe God forgives
without requiring anything?
>> Repentance.
>> Do I believe God
>> God's forgiveness without repentance?
>> No, you don't. You believe that God
needed a blood sacrifice to forgive.
>> Yeah. No, for sure. For sure. I I
believe that I believe that Jesus
Jesus died for our sins.
>> Right. But Jesus is not he's teaching
something else here. He's he's saying
you don't nobody when you are ready to
come back to God, he won't he won't
punish you. He won't require a payment
from you. He'll just forgive you. Is
that what you think?
There's a there's a lesson that's
okay. You can take that as a lesson,
right? But there's also another lesson
in that story, right? Who who who in
there is the last son? You could say you
you could say the younger the first son,
right?
But you can also say that
that the older brother is the one that's
lost
because he doesn't know God's grace.
I understand. But remember, you think
God needs a blood sacrifice
to take care of your sins.
>> Is the parable teaching that here?
The parable is teaching us to turn turn
back to to God. Yeah.
>> And what happens when you turn back to
God? Does he need a blood sacrifice from
you or does he just forgive you?
>> Yeah. He he like he forgives you. Yeah.
>> Okay. But you think Jesus did? You think
Jesus came because God needed this blood
sacrifice and somebody had to die and be
brutally punished and that finally
satisfied God's wrath and then everybody
is good to go. Now
how does how do how do these how does
this parable support this doctrine? And
this is not the only parable. All of the
parables teach this. Uh if if if you
know uh our father prayer
>> here look our father prayer. Our father
who are in heaven hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come your will be done on
earth as it is in heaven. Give us this
day our daily bread. Forgive us our
trespasses just as we forgive those who
trespass against us. Jesus says that the
father forgives us in the same exact way
I forgive you. And when you do me wrong,
I don't tell you, here, take my newborn
child, murder him, and then after you're
done with him, I'll, you know, you're
good to go. No, I say, you know what,
brother? I I see you're sincere. You're
a good guy. You did me wrong, but you
know what? I forgive you. And if I could
do that, how much more God, the creator
of the world.
That's exactly what the Old Testament
teaches. Ezekiel 18 20 to 21. When the
wicked turns away from their sin,
repents and does all my commandments, I
will forget his sin,
>> he shall not die, but he shall live.
>> Yeah. But
>> where does it where does it say I need
you to die for my I need someone to die
for sins. Where does it say that?
>> But you're also you're also forgetting
the the the main part, right? The main
part is
um Matthew's 26:28
when Jesus says, "This is my blood of
the covenant which is poured out for
many for the forgiveness of sin."
>> Yeah, I know. I know that.
>> Yes. Forgiveness of sins.
>> I understand. I understand that. I'm not
I'm not saying
>> I'm going to tell you this. I'm going to
tell you this.
>> All right. uh Buddhists Buddhists have
their set of laws that will take you to
the path. Okay? Hindus have their path
of law. They can't do certain things.
They can't do lot of things, right? And
and and and
the and the blood of Jesus is the only
way for forgiveness of sin is what Jesus
teach.
>> And I'm telling you, that's not what
Jesus teaches. That's what the later
Christian Pauline community Just let me
tell you
>> for the co of the covenant.
>> I understand. I
>> I promise brother I understand all of
that. That's why I'm going to break it
down. Okay,
>> this goes back to what I said about the
gospels and their distortion. Okay,
>> you have early Christians who followed
Paul and his preaching that Jesus died
for our sins and he was a blood atoning
sacrifice.
And these Christians who came later on
when the gospels were written, they were
written by these same Christians and
they needed to justify how this man
teaches the same thing as Paul is
telling them he taught. This is why it's
consensus
by historical scholars of the historical
Jesus that these are these are what they
call passion predictions and it is
consensus
that these were placed on the lips of
Jesus after. Why? Because they do not
cohhere internally with what he spends
his whole ministry teaching.
>> Think about it.
>> Let me ask let me just I just I just I
just want to put a thought in your mind.
Okay, that's
>> Forgive me if I'm taking too long.
>> Sure. Sure. Go
>> ahead. Why did Why did Moses have to
kill the Passover lamp and and and paint
the the the the door?
>> They didn't They didn't have I'll tell
you. I'll tell you. So,
>> what is the What is the purpose of the
Passover?
>> I I got you. The Passover lamb is to
celebrate when the Israelites were in
Egypt and God struck the final curse
called the first the curse of the
firstborn where all the firstborns of
the Egyptians were killed overnight. And
so God tells them, "Go slaughter a lamb
and sprinkle the blood on your
doorposts." So that the destroyer, the
angel, when he sees the sprinkled blood
on your doorpost, he skips your house
and he doesn't kill your kids. Okay? So
he knows you're not Egyptians. And so
they did that and they they sprinkled
the blood on their doorpost. And that
night all the Egyptian firstborns were
killed. Okay? And as a commemoration of
that event, that's what the celebration
of the Passover was instituted. It's not
for forgiveness of sins.
>> It's not for anything like that. It is
commemorating a historical national
event. Okay. Now, I understand why you
bring that up. Like I said, because the
author of the Gospel of John has Jesus
be the Passover lamb. That's how he
structured his gospel. Yes.
>> But that's a that's again that's a
theological development. It's not in
Mark.
It's not in Luke.
Yeah, Jesus died in in the separation
day. Like Jesus died.
>> No, you see that's the problem. That's
only in John. But in Mark, Matthew, and
in Luke, he dies after he eats the
Passover meal. Do you get the problem?
Now, John changes the death day of Jesus
so it could fit his theological
symbolism that Jesus is the Passover
lamb.
But Matthew, Mark, and Luke doesn't have
that. That's why Jesus doesn't die on
the day of preparation on Thursday, but
he dies on Friday.
You see, do you see how these gospel
authors had the freedom to change
whatever they want based on what their
theological symbol was? Why doesn't
Jesus die on the on the day of Passover
in Matthew, Mark, and Luke? Why does he
die or sorry, why doesn't he die on the
day of preparation in Matthew, Mark, and
Luke? What do you think?
Why does he die on the preparation?
That's when they told the Lamb in John.
>> No, in John he dies on the day of I
understand because in John Jesus is the
lamb, right? You have this idea of Jesus
the lamb.
>> So Jesus dies on the day of preparation
because on the day of preparation that's
when the Israelites slaughtered the
lamb, prepared it,
>> and they would eat it after sunset.
That's the that's when the Passover
would end.
>> No. In Mark, no. In Mark, Matthew, and
Luke, he doesn't die on preparation. He
dies after preparation day.
>> Show me Mark.
>> I can read it. I can read it for you.
>> I got you here.
I got you. Here, let's pull it up.
>> I got Mark 15.
>> Yes, that's that's where it should be.
Let me just pull it up.
>> He died on the preparation day 42.
>> No, not in Mark. Here, let me let me
pull That's only in John dies on the day
of preparation. Mark 15:42
>> here. Let me just pull it up one sec. So
if you go to Mark 14:12, it says, "And
on the first day of unleavened bread,
when they sacrifice the Passover lamb,
his disciples said to him, where will
you have us go and prepare for you to
eat the Passover?" Then in Mark
14:16-18,
"And they prepared the Passover.
And when it was evening, he came with
the 12.
So remember, you have Thursday
prep, daytime, that's preparation.
When evening hits, preparation is over
and that's when it's the day of Passover
and they eat the lamb.
>> You You don't know how many days it
takes to prepare. Mark 15:42,
>> of Jesus, it says,
>> "Brother, just just follow with me here,
brother. Just follow with me here. Okay.
>> Does Jesus eat the Passover?
>> Jesus did not eat the Passover,
>> but it says in Mark 14, they ate the
Passover together. Mark 14:16 to18. And
they prepared the Passover. And when it
was evening, he came with the 12.
>> Matthew says the same thing.
>> Yeah. Matthew, then you go to Matthew
says the same thing. Then in Mark 15,
and when evening had come, since it was
the day of preparation, that is the day
before the Sabbath.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay.
>> So that's when he died,
>> brother. Brother, you're not you're not
you're not you're not paying attention,
man. So again, in Mark 14, Jesus tells
his disciples, "Go and prepare the
Passover." They go and prepare. When
night hits, they eat the Passover meal
together.
>> Yeah. Rewards. Like like I'm telling
you, it takes maybe it takes longer to
prepare. So now,
>> brother, it has nothing to do with
brother. It has nothing to do with it
has nothing to do with taking long to
prepare.
>> Jesus.
>> Okay. 14 verse one. It says, "Now the
Passover and the festival of unleavened
bread was only two days away,
right? Two days away." That's what
happened in Mark 14. Mark 15 is the day
of preparation
when he died.
>> No, brother. That's the preparation for
the Sabbath. Read the full verse.
Friday is the preparation for the
Sabbath.
>> It was a special Sabbath. It was the day
of the day of
>> Yeah. See, you see, you're you're
confusing things.
>> Thursday.
>> I I got you. I'm I'm gonna tell you,
brother. Brother, I'm going to tell you
this is if you've read the Gospels, then
you should know this.
>> The the Sabbath was Passover.
>> Brother, you can't keep cutting me off,
man.
>> I'm going to tell you. Okay. So, you
have in Mark,
you have Thursday is the preparation.
Thursday, daytime.
Jesus tells them to go prepare for the
Passover and then they come and they eat
the Passover together. Right.
>> Okay. So,
>> right. So, Mark Mark 15:42.
Mark 15:42.
It was preparation day
>> for what? Finish the verse.
>> That is the day before the Sabbath.
>> The Sabbath.
So there, so it's the preparation for
the Sabbath. You're confusing the
preparation for Passover and preparation
for the Sabbath. The preparation for the
Sabbath uh was on Friday. The
preparation for Passover was on
Thursday. Passover day was on Friday. So
Thursday night until Friday night.
>> You know, you know the
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. So,
>> so Jesus eats the Passover.
That's it. They have they have the
Passover meal and then he's arrested
that night. He stays in prison
overnight. And in the morning, he's
crucified.
In John, they don't eat the Passover.
They just have something called the last
meal. John doesn't call it the Sabbath,
the Passover meal, because he has him
die before the Passover meal is even
eaten,
which shows you John's theological
symbol is that he needs Jesus to die on
preparation day.
>> Need to read 14 together again because I
think this is
Let's read 14 together again because I I
think it's it's off.
>> Can you Can you Can you read Luke 22:15?
That clarifies everything. If it wasn't,
>> you want me to read
>> Mark 14 because you were talking about
14.
>> Yeah. I'm I'm brother, are you denying
that Jesus ate the Passover meal?
>> Uh,
so the last supper, are you saying the
last supper is the same as the Passover
meal?
>> No, brother. I'm saying they're not.
Okay,
>> I'm saying in John's last supper, it's
not a Passover meal. Why? Because John
doesn't want Jesus to die after
preparation for the Passover. He wants
him to die on the day of preparation to
symbolize that Jesus is the Passover
lamb
that is killed on the day of
preparation. In Mark, Matthew, and Luke,
Jesus eats the Passover meal.
That's after preparation. There's
Thursday daytime preparation. Evening
comes. Now you have Passover.
>> Okay.
>> Jesus eats the Passover. He's arrested
that night. In the morning, he's
crucified.
>> Let let me ask you.
>> Friday morning, he's crucified.
>> Okay. Okay. Let let me ask you what the
preparation day is.
>> Preparation day for what?
>> There's the preparation day for the
Sabbath and the preparation day for the
Passover.
>> I don't know, bro.
>> Preparation day. Preparation day for the
Sabbath is the day before the Sabbath.
So let me tell you
>> capitalized preparation day. Do you
think that preparation day is is for any
Sabbath?
Capital P and then capital.
>> Yes. Yes. Every Friday is a preparation
day for the Sabbath. Sabbath is on
Saturday. Preparation for the Sabbath is
on Friday. That's why Mark says in the
very verse you read
>> the preparation
that is the day before the Sabbath.
>> Yeah. But but why why would they say on
on 14 uh two days away?
Now the Passover
>> because it was because it was two days
away.
>> Yeah. And that's
>> because two days away
>> and then the next day he was
>> No, brother. No, you're you're you're
mistaken. You're all over the place.
>> How the point I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna
I'm gonna tell you why, brother. Let's
just It's very simple.
>> When the ate Passover, does that mean
preparation has passed?
>> When the when the ate Passover, the
preparation has passed. Yes.
>> Because you
preparation, I'm assuming. Good. Is it
good? Did Jesus eat the Passover meal?
He did not. He was the Passover meal.
>> Okay. So, so again, we're going to You
see, we're going to read it. Mark 14:16.
He told his disciples, "Go and prepare
for the Passover." They go and prepare.
Then they sit down that night and eat
it.
>> They went to the city.
>> So, he ate Passover.
>> And in Luke 22:15, he literally says, "I
have desired to eat this Passover with
you."
the verse he quoted when he says, "This
is the blood of the covenant. This is
the bread." Where is he saying all of
those things when he's eating the
Sabbath meal? So, let me ask you this.
What What do you think? So, you don't
believe that there is a need for
uh like like there's a need for Jesus.
When he says, "This is my
blood."
>> I'm saying he never said that.
>> That's made up.
You think that's made up? You think
>> I know. I know, brother. I know. I know.
>> Gospel is about that
Christ.
>> No, brother. I'm I'm saying you deny the
gospel of Christ. I'm saying I accept
the gospel of Christ.
>> I'm saying the gospel of Christ. No,
I'll tell you how. I'm saying the gospel
of Christ is forgiveness through
repentance. Just like he teaches his
whole ministry.
>> Then somehow you have Just listen,
brother. I'm going to tell you how. Then
somehow at the end of it his ministry,
you have all these strange sayings that
start appearing about Jesus dying in his
blood, eating his blood and his blood
uh, you know, atoning for your sins. All
of these things don't cohhere with what
Jesus spends his whole ministry doing.
As a matter of fact, the first ever time
we hear about Jesus saying that this is
my blood, this is my body which is
spilled for you is from Paul in
Corinthians
writing in the year 50.
>> So this tradition goes back to Paul
doesn't go back to Jesus.
>> Okay. So So
>> this is why I asked you earlier
when
>> Yeah. Go ahead.
>> When Matthew's 2:2 says, this is about
the magi coming from the east to
Jerusalem. And they said, "Where is the
one who has been born king of
>> we saw his messiah
>> rose and we have come to worship him."
>> Yep. Worship.
>> Worship again means again we already
went over this worship in Greek there is
pro
which is reverence do to anybody with
high authority. Just like David is
worshiped just like Daniel is worshiped
just like Jacob is woripped.
All of these people were worshiped in
the same way. It's just to pay respect.
The Magi were Persian Zoroastrians
who apparently found Jesus when he was a
baby and they paid reverence and respect
to the baby Messiah.
>> So how does that
>> You don't think that with Daniel?
>> I don't think what?
>> You don't think that that has anything
to do with Daniel?
>> What do you mean it has anything to do
with Daniel?
the magi where they came from.
>> What What would it have to do with the
book of Daniel?
>> Because because they were exiled to that
area, that region, right?
>> I I Listen, I don't have a problem I
don't have a problem with the magi
coming to Jesus, dude. I don't have an
issue with that. That's fine. You keep
forgetting. We believe in Jesus. We
believe that he's the Messiah.
>> Yes. And and and
Yeah. Well, anyways, um I got to get
going soon, but but I I want to I want
to just tell you guys
um this thing, right? I I thank you guys
for keeping, you know, this conversation
respectful and just, you know,
discussing about what you believe in and
what you believe is truth and what what
I just want to let you guys know that I
really appreciate it. And I I am not a
scholar. I'm not a I'm nobody. I'm just
a fighter, you know, and and
>> yeah,
>> I I do believe that
when I follow Christ, when I have him in
my heart, when I love you like I love
Christ,
it's um
it it's one thing that helped me
understand God's love, right? Like if if
uh if I love you, how can I look at your
look at your daughters or your wife
lustfully, right? How can I want to
steal from you? How can I want to how
can I want to hate you? You know, how
can I want to do even think about
committing, you know, adulterous sin or
any kind of sin and and and and that's
why it's for me it's uh that's why I
believe Jesus is the truth and the way.
And and I know you like you you believe
that he's a messenger and a prophet and
and that you can get through God through
repentance, right? Through Allah through
repentance and and all these are like
what we we believe in. And I mean like
we can't discuss it all in one in in in
one hour time, you know, but I I thank
you guys for having me with you guys and
and talk about at least what I believe
is my truth
or or what I believe in God's word, you
know.
>> I appreciate it. Thank you so much. It
was a pleasure meeting you as well. Um
thank you for being respectful in the
court of conversation. I appreciate your
time and we really value you as a
person. Uh hopefully we could have some
time to talk about uh Islam and you know
more about what we believe in cuz I know
we spent some time speaking about what
you believe in in the Bible and stuff.
Uh I apologize if I came across uh rude
in any way. I'm just a little bit
passionate. So do forgive me.
>> I I love the fact forgive me for that
standing. You know
>> I don't I don't feel it at all rude or
or anything like that. I I have a I have
a heart that longs for the truth. So to
me it it's it's it's it's not it's not
it's not anything like that. So I
appreciate you guys
>> hopefully we could do this again man. It
was nice listening to you guys and I
>> thank you for spending some time with
us. La last question. How do you see
Hamza Chamay and Strickland going?
>> That's coming that's coming up right
next month. I think I think Hamza's got
it.
>> Yeah,
>> Hamza's gonna be too strong, too big,
too fast, too youth, you know, too much
youth on his side. It's going to be uh
and and that's one thing that I really
like. I really
have high praises for the Muslim
fighters. They're very disciplined
and it has to do with their faith and
what you know the their following of of
of
Islam. So I think I think Hamza's gonna
get the win and it's going to be a
finish.
>> An ang Thank you. Thank you with us. God
bless you, brother. Thank you.
>> Take care.