and everybody should watch this and see
how you were just so composed stoic
you know you didn't lose your cool you
didn't want to punch him like many
people would just you know snap
how are you you got a problem my name is
and what is that supposed to mean to me
i'm your brother
you're not my brother i'm your brother
in humanity you're not my brother
you're are you are you a muslim
welcome all of you to this unique event
strengthening the bond of humanity by
serving all those in need
bismillah
and i have two special guests i got my
good friend dr sabil ahmed director of
game peace
and dr jamal budawi who's an author phd
professor
emeritus at saint mary's he's also
was teaching management and religious
studies
since 1962 he's been in the field of
dawah that's our topic that we're going
to be discussing
i'm sorry
1963 we have
two esteemed guests assalamu alaikum for
you how are you
so how you guys been how how i i see
often because uh dr beale he's in
chicago but
uh you were we were together what a few
years ago dr
jamal how you been since then yes i
forgot where
and when
memory problem so you've probably got a
lot of memories i mean
with meeting with people such as uh have
you had with uh our old teacher
both of ours dr amir ali and
i didn't have much interaction with him
but
we were both in one program in
the uk and also when he had his debate
with i think dr floyd or whatever his
name i think
i forgot in in london
in a major debate
uh i was i was just just going
as an audience and somebody picked me
and said you said islam wants you to
make introduction
to islam in so many minutes
and also to moderate it
so that this are just limited
uh interactions but of course i have
access to most of these
books when dr sebio when dr nike was in
i believe in chicago he had his debate
dr sabil was also there i believe
moderating and you were where you were
there also at that time
yes yes i was on the side of dr dekker
and the night before we discussed some
of the issues it was very enjoyable
discussion
and that and that that's you the young
that's the the uh younger version of you
how dr sebil there you were moderating
for the for the zocker night campbell
debate
yes yes this was 20 years ago this was
uh 1st of april
20 2000 actually where dr jamal badavi
mashallah he gave us a briefing the
night before the debate
between dr zakir naik and dr william
campbell
and i can still remember mashallah dr
zakir naik taking the notes
dr jamal badivi was there on the stage
as a support alhamdulillah
so it is a really impactful debate or
discussion we had today so that's what
we want to gain want to gain from you
know the experiences of others
especially people who've been in the
dallas
for such a long time you know some of
the you know where some of the young
people coming up can learn from people's
mistakes some of the things that you
know
many of the gems of wisdom that are out
there so we don't make some of the same
mistakes and we can just uh all excel to
do a better job at sharing this
message this beautiful message of islam
okay let me take a few minutes
at least to set the stage because it
looks like the main problem
is not that some people are enthusiastic
and sincere
about giving dawah but i think we need
to examine quite carefully also
how to do that and that's from quranic
perspective
with a couple of examples and try to be
as brief as possible
seven points first of all to do dawah we
get a
guidance from surat the sixteenth surah
invite all to the way of your lord
with wisdom and kind advice
and only debate with them in the best
manners wisdom is a great
word that means in my definition in the
context of dawah
saying the right thing
to the right person in the right
time and circumstances in the right way
that's a lot you can spend quite a
bit of time discerning this
dimensions of wisdom but the other side
also it's not only wisdom or good
knowledge
but also kindness kindness
secondly never revile
the sacred thing of other religions even
whatever they worship besides allah
or instead of allah the quran is very
clear let me refer to an ayah
all believers do not insult
what they invoke besides allah even if
they were like idols
or they will insult allah spitefully out
of ignorance the third
adapt of dawah fairness
with others and openness
and in fact i spent slightly more time
my few more seconds of two
key areas in the quran
of not the arrogant approach to debate
not the idea of beats you down
you're wrong and i'm right even if that
might be true
this appears some people wish to
check on that that is surah sabha the
54th surah
in the quran in ayah 20 years
24 and 5. okay i read the first
translation of the first one ask them
meaning o prophet who provides for you
from heavens and the earth say
allah affirmation nobody will deny that
certainly one of us
is rightly guided and the other
is clearly astray
subhanallah that is either
you're right and i am wrong or i'm wrong
and you're right
the confidence here that spewed this
ayah
is but look at this
not yours right let's discuss it
and then the following i in the same
surah that's ayat 25
say say to your adversaries on your
other side yes you called
you will not be accountable
for our misdeeds
so mislead for us as muslims even
imagine the fairness
nor will you be nor will
we be responsible for your
what do you say it says equality
of your misdeeds no it says your deals
a term that could be good deeds
or bad deeds that is the ultimate
of fairness and humility without
compromising an ounce of truth
number four focus on the essential
things
if somebody wanted to know about islam
they
they have often times a spiritual vacuum
and just don't start telling them
philosophical things and so on
but without reaching their heart
and that's why the ayah that we
cited earlier
translated a kind advice
but more either literally also means
exhortation something to reach not only
the mind
but something that reaches the heart and
oftentimes
we miss that especially with people
looking for some
feeling the respect spiritual vacuum and
removal
of the confusions around them
number five don't forget to be a
graduate
all prophets will graduate with their
people and
bored lots of insults and mockery and
all of that
and they never started dealing with
people in this inappropriate
manner you can find variety of example
in the lives of the prophet and most
importantly in the life of prophet
muhammad sallallahu alaihi
that even the prohibition of drinking as
you know
took some stages because you know people
needed that kind of breaking with the
bad habits but yes the shriya
now is complete the
ranking is haram but we can learn that
lesson
also in breaking people and i'll just
give you an
illustration i had a very good friend
masha allah was active in dawa and
he's a professor also and one time he
came to me and he said look
i have a friend that really really
was interested in islam we used to have
you know like coffee together whatever
very close friends and one time he came
to him and he said
you know that other person
he said brother i am
really now ready i am convinced
of islam it makes a whole lot of sense
to me
in mind and heart so the
the muslim brother told him but
i know you drink and if you want to be a
muslim
you have to stop drinking because it is
haram
that person was just on the verge of
taking shahada
said i am sorry i would have loved to
but
i can't stop drinking now this is part
of my life
so he asked me he was feeling sort of
guilt
and he asked me did i do something wrong
am i not supposed to say the truth
without any compromise
i said no what you said was not wrong
it is the right thing that drinking is
haram
but how to present that to someone who
can't stop right now
you can tell him this is haram
but it does not prevent you from taking
shahadah
and insha allah once you become a muslim
allah will open your heart but you
should have the intention
to change that so you said the truth but
it needed to be
presented in a different way
this is a practical example that i you
know was involved in myself
six of seven
avoid it i can say
discussion or argument not all
arguments are bad because in one of the
verses we said
it says argue with the people
of the book with what is best and
kindest and so on
so argument itself could be positive
could be negative
but in the arabic language as we find in
one of the hadith of prophet muhammad
there is another term is called mira
actually referred to not only just
debate of discussion
or argument but since this argument you
go in
like a broken record the person doesn't
want to listen
even keep interrupting in that case
it is useless and futile and might just
harden feelings on both sides
and that's why the prophet sallallahu
alaihi he says
i am in service of at a place in
paradise
for those who leave mira senseless
argumentation
shouting amazing okay
even if he's right even if you're right
don't get involved in that
and finally relax relax
upset or angry if you feel that you've
done your very best
to present true islam as best as you can
as convincingly as you can but the
person
did not respond relax because the quran
says
even to the prophet you don't guide
someone you love but it is allah who
guides
all and there are many people
contemporaries of the prophets
relatives like his uncles
they and they knew of the honesty and
truthfulness of the prophet
but they didn't
is the one who holds the that guidance
so relax um i think this is just i don't
want to go in details of the place or
give examples
but maybe that might comment dr sabil
what advice do you have to help us and
those who are
fulfilling the obligation of sharing the
purpose of life with the people
communicating this message of having it
done in the prophetic manner
well first and foremost especially our
really special guest dr jamal
the good news is this alhamdulillah many
people more now than before that i can
think of they are entering into the
field of dawa
using the social media using the dawah
table specially
open houses right billboards and buses
and tv and radio
they're using many many platforms so
that's the good news
however we need to remind ourselves that
the proper interactions that we can do
with our non-muslim brothers and sisters
based upon the prophetic example
and i'm really glad that dr jamal bhadwi
mashallah in a really comprehensive way
the seven points that you mentioned
really stuck home with me and when i was
young dr jamal badavi
i also used to see people doing
different ways of dawa
i was always attracted towards your form
of dawah which with a smile with
compassion with empathy you know with
softness
so that was you were my role model and
you're still my role model mashallah
right so i'm really glad that you are
able to
present the points to remind myself and
to remind other people
what many people what they say brother
eddie is that you know we have to be
firm
with the non-muslims you know with the
kuffar because they are abusing the
prophet
they are defaming they are debating and
so they give
all of these excuses to be harsh with
the non-muslims to debate with them and
shout at them and laugh at their ignore
ignorance
they're just making it personal
so one quick advice or quick reminder
for myself and all of those
you know brothers and sisters mashallah
they have good intentions
is that when allah subhanahu ta allah
before he sent
prophet musa al-islam to firaoun who is
the greatest of all the tyrants
in surah taha it mentions to quran uh to
musa islam
that to be soft in the speech when he's
approaching
firaoun right so you know
the current people may that be david
birds or sam shimon and people like that
they're not bigger tyrants than you know
obviously those uh you know fair on and
other people like that
so we need to make sure a reminder to me
because sometimes emotions
gets the best of us we need to remind
ourselves
always what would the prophet do sallam
if he were in our situation
similarly the way that musa al-islam was
told to be soft
even for own we need to be soft with the
people
and making sure that we win their hearts
and minds we cannot make it personal
as dr jamal badavi mentioned present
islam the best way possible pray to
allah
to guide them whatever happens between
them
and allah is between them and allah
at least we have done our job so i would
say that these are some of the thoughts
that were rushing to my mind masha'allah
when i was listening to those excellent
seven points of our dear chair now
that's just not in talk
because a lot of people get tested and
you actually got tested dr sabil and i'd
like for us to show this clip i'm sure
that's very clear
how are you you got a problem and what
is that supposed to mean to me i'm your
brother is
uh you're not my brother i'm your
brother in humanity you're not my
brother
you're are you are you a muslim
where you actually had this this uh what
do you want to call him i mean he could
be called you know so many different
names but we won't you know exhort to
that but
he's really you know testing your
patience this guy
goes he goes around different mosques
masjids
he stands in front of the mosque with
different signs you know
slandering and provoking he does a lot
of provoking instigating he's looking to
get a rise
and he came up against you and i think
this should be textbook
you know everybody should watch this and
see how you were just so composed stoic
you know you didn't lose your cool you
didn't want to punch him like many
people would just you know snap
uh tell us about that experience dr
beale yes
two years ago i mean before kovit at the
mat at the ikna
mass convention in washington dc i think
you were also there here
so i was walking with my family towards
the main hall so i was walking from the
hotel
to the hall so we pass on the street
in which this person really big muscular
rewriter
maybe three times my size himself and
few of his uh you know people they were
holding this nasty signs
against prophet against islam right they
were abusing our women our girls when
they were wearing the hijab and passing
by
so i came close to him your religion is
killing people right now as you and i
are talking
making one innocent life is like taking
the life of all of humanity
and saving one life my friend but when
you kill they're not
innocent do you have anything ticking on
you what do you have in that black bag
let me check it out you have anything
ticking on you
what do you want to walk away you got a
bad attitude i don't trust you okay
so you know jesus and i approached him
and i said you know my brother in
humanity how can i help you you are here
i was thinking yes allah sent him over
here
so we convey to him the message of islam
so that was those were the thoughts
coming to my mind
and obviously as a human being i was
also emotional i was angry but i want to
find out how would the prophet behave in
that situation
so in those five minute or ten minute
interaction
alhamdulillah i was thinking you know
what this person is a
child like a two-year-old you don't yell
at two-year-old people
you don't you know get angry at them and
smack them you just
have empathy for them so in those five
or ten minutes of interaction
i wanted to convey to him the message of
islam and i think you know with allah's
help
obviously i conveyed to him he had some
misconceptions about
age of aisha about you know muslim
terrorists and whatnot i conveyed that
to him at the end of the conversation
towards the end of the conversation
there was this
lady who was passing by and this lady
she was just observing both of us
right she was not part of you know
either me or his group
and she came close to him and she told
him you know what
if i were a non-muslim i would choose
islam
looking at the behavior between this
muslim person and this non
uh and you he she was telling that to
this guy at the end of the conversation
shift he said you know
can you give a few copies of the quran
for myself and my group
so alhamdulillah you know i mean this is
all from allah that we need to
not make it personal we need to have our
coal we need to remind how the prophet
sallallahu alaihi salaam the best day of
all time
how he used to behave what what
interactions he used to have with
empathy smile compassion kindness
so that's a good reminder masha'allah
for me and for all of us
uh dr jamal budawi who as i said earlier
you were pretty much the
corner man corner chef for all of
pretty much most of uh dr zucker nike's
uh debates and why did he choose you
specifically
do you know i have been honored actually
before i
saw dr zekker that in early times
actually
he honored me by
bringing his crew even and come
to visit me in in halifax
and dr zucker to his credit is a very
eager
researcher and seeker of
knowledge so he was aware
must have seen some of these of these
tapes that were mentioned
in the introduction uh at that time we
had them in half ends
with you of course that's quality knives
is zero music anyway uh half inch
and he said i would like to buy the
entire
uh the entire series
which was quite a job in big one
um and so at least
he seemed to have been familiar uh
with with this kind of humble
contribution
and very enthusiastic about it and
alhamdulillah we found that we
are on very much the same
wave i was invited by him
also to india mumbai
i forgot whether it was one time or two
time
where he speaks uh addressing hundreds
of thousands
of people yeah the peace conference
is that we also was that was i there one
time at the same time when you were
there
yes actually he invited all me also for
a presentation even though i wasn't
needed in his presence and other
great scholars so alhamdulillah that
we will we have very similar approach
and i believe
again he is quite
soft there
generally speaking and it speaks with
logic with
coolness and he's been challenged if you
watch his trips with some
hostile type of questions and he keeps
his school and starts giving the answer
addressing the the questioner
brother sister something of that nature
so i think there are some similar and i
i find the same similarity with dr
sabine
also alhamdulillah at least it's not me
or
x or y it is you see the
the purity of islam the correct
wasati islam just balanced which is a
quranic concept
and the the more one learns about the
character of the prophet saws and the
history of the prophets
recite the quran frequently reflect on
it
it presents quite a bit of different
core than those who
some even reject the notion of dialogue
against it all together
alluded to that and some think that any
discussion of islam would have to be
a debate with winners and losers
and putting that down and
it had this you just crush
their arguments uh alhamdulillah
i agree with dr sabil's
you know optimism on that but we have to
work
hard really on many sincere brothers and
sisters who are enthusiastic who want to
do
something for dawah by maybe gently also
you know discuss those issues maybe i
suggest perhaps
some training program for the i think
some sometimes it happens
at least on regional basis
now you have a ton of experience
debating that's my
my next question is which one of those
people that you debated and people go
put dr jamal buddha you're one of the
originals over here that was
in the americas debating many of those
who are out there
trying to defail islam and clear the
misconceptions deliver the
truth to them which one would you say
was it that was
the most disrespectful that was the most
vile that you
really had to hold back and just talk to
us about maybe some of the things that
you know maybe
the mistakes you made things that you've
learned from a long younger version of
you
uh was it uh i'm guessing was it doctor
or was it was it shadows
you remember that one what is it
i'm not inclined to mention
names okay to simply say that
my definite preference when i was
invited to speak on various campuses or
communities
is a dialogue form
not debate form dialogue
dialogue form give and take you have
limited time also for each side
the battles respectfully question answer
from the audience
and in some cases some of these cases we
leave
liking each other and shaking hands and
so on
but with respect
but i must admit that sometimes you get
people
who push you
to debate i don't like it
but there was a case for example where i
didn't choose
that but some university
chapter msa chapters called me
and they said and i prefer to use xyz
x person has been going around in all
campuses and saying i
no muslim leader and speaker
could ever answer me and then
in one case as narrated to me
he said and that includes
him there he came to debate with me
so one of the students got out and
called me on the phone i said i don't
know the name
of that person i haven't encountered him
did he invite you never
are you willing i said yes
because they felt very embarrassed many
difficult questions
nobody as he claimed is able to answer
them
so it is not like a challenge personal
or anything
but to clarify this issues we have to
protect our people also from these
distortions they said
then they asked me when i said look
i give give a good number of choices
so they went to him and after he
finished his presentation i don't know
when because it wasn't that they told me
they said sir we say that jamal bada we
never accepted your invitation he said
they never received such
invitation are you willing then to
debate him
some noted some kind of hesitation
on his part so they sat with him
afterwards
he said when can we arrange that
this day no this is the graduation of my
daughter this that no i am booked in it
with all big lists they told me
you're running away not jamal brother so
he was
embarrassed so he had to accept one of
those
dates so alhamdulillah
all grace is due to allah and even then
of course as a younger person at the
time
uh in a situation that i don't
necessarily like with someone who's
laughing about the prophet salallahu
all kind of offensive things i try to
control as much as possible
but no human is perfect and then some
points i have to respond very strongly
to show that he doesn't
know what he's talking about but not in
a way of putting down
but just a person like that should be
discredited in fact
you make distortion and false
but even after that i was talking to
some brothers
the audience i said forgive me this is
not my nature at all but
this kind of situation
i had to be stronger and affirmative
they said me no what are you talking
about
you're so patient and i wear your
your place i have would have taken my
shoes and they said but
i said no no no i don't agree with that
but
yeah there are a few things
like this but alhamdulillah the
overwhelming
approach was respectful
i was going to present a few uh a few
scenarios
that uh you know the current dais in the
world
may that be in the uk us australia
that we have seen uh unfortunately they
have made it as a norm
so one thing would be that you know they
start calling
like this uh they got this abusive names
to the people that they're debating i
mean i'm not going to call out the names
obviously i'm not going to call out the
people who are doing it
but what advice would you give them
because they call these names and laugh
at the people
with some made-up name around their real
name
so what voice would you give then have a
few other scenarios inshallah
i think we need to to really
share with them like some of the points
mentioned in the introduction
that we are forbidden from reviling the
false gods of others let alone
individuals who might have their own
thinking and maybe
in the future allah would would guide
them
that this kind of treatment is uh
i think it was you dr that once he was
contra it drives people
away from islam so that's a quranic
instruction
so when we're gentle with people
as the quran teaches the letter not what
is good
best even more than good
that opens not only people's hearts
but their minds as well and oftentimes
if you get in the debate tight tight
confrontational
situation it is as if you
want to have victory
over the other side so you may be
able to win the argument
but lose the audience so you have to
keep in mind also
how would people respond to hearse
versus
soft and logical thing and let them
decide
this practice that's a command of the
haqq so
those who want to do that or at least
should read that
and maybe some training session might be
useful maybe
also during accession of some of the
misunderstood issues
of women or violence and so on to help
each other do a better job but gently
dr sabil you dr bill you're going to
you're going to share some uh some more
examples with us
yes i had a like a quick list i was
going to quickly
you know have our uh provide his wisdom
with the quranic ayas and the prophetic
hadith
so some people what they do is
unfortunately they
lack they laugh at the lack of knowledge
of the opponent
to such an extent that you know now it
feels so embarrassing when people watch
especially non-muslims watching
that you know muslims are laughing and
just distancing themselves when they are
debating with uh
with these non-muslims so what would you
say to them
uh to you know i sent you a video clip
we're not calling any names
but what would you advise in those
situations
i'd say if if someone is known about his
abusive language and offensive language
actually it is not
it is quite appropriate to avoid it i
know some people might say oh because
you don't have answer now
but you could avoid it but study
what they say and make a video
on that topic or in my case
some people tell tell me that in our
campus there were this
this this and objections about islam so
they we have a general title of a
lecture or something
and these are answered without saying so
and so said that
because he might be in the audience and
maybe allah might open his heart but if
you put him
in that hard position and so that he
doesn't understand say
stick to the issue stick to the issue
and by the way there is also another
practical pragmatic part
of not being harsh with people
in addition of its contradiction to the
quran and the seerah of the
that you tell them what are you
accomplishing now
people might be living more angry about
islam
because you are attacking their
religions and laughing at their
beliefs right
if people are abusing your faith in some
gathering and whatnot
we should just avoid it correct exactly
if you find people are talking something
inappropriate and so on
uh it says don't stay with them until
they change
didn't say leave khalees until at least
they yahood i mean speak about something
else other than you know the
inappropriate
language or talk that they had
because meeting with people also and
gaining their confidence
is a means of dawah especially by good
example
also you may have heard about speaker's
corner in london
what happens there is you may have right
so there's like shouting matches going
on between people of different face
no face and unfortunately now it became
like a
you know default state of the muslims
going there
that they have shouting matches and when
people look at it you know the sincere
non-muslims
it appears as if this is the way that
muslims preach islam or share their
message
what advice would you give to the young
people up there especially the muslim
brothers and sisters
they have excellent passion excellent
intention
but that for that methodology what would
you advise
that's not the way when the prophet
salallahu
received the message and received the
command of allah
to declare the message in public he
didn't stand up and say hey
these evil idols and these drunkard
people
and this and this and this and that no
this is just saying of course you know
famous from the sierra
if i tell you that there is an army
behind this mountain would you believe
me
say no we never experienced new telling
like then i am a warner
to you from allah
of torment or punishment meaning of
course if you don't believe in allah
keep defying you might land in
in the hellfire and so on but he did not
you know make it by shouting and when he
stood there
also this is a perfect example
of his personality after he finished
that
his uncle abused him
he said may you perish i think abu lahab
yes and his uncle even in front of all
people
is this is why you gathered us in other
words you gotta ask
maybe to tell us about some good news
about uh
prophets trade this that and you're
telling us that stuff
he was joking about
believing in allah and
good moral behavior he never responded
he didn't answer
but allah answered for him as we
see in surat allah and defended him
it is not that you will you will perish
but abu lahab is the one
who will perish with and a jazz there's
an amazing thing in this area
because abu lahab could have thoughted
the message of islam in its bed
in the very beginning because
abu lahab could come and pretend that he
became muslim
for example and of course
thank you sheikh said that muhammad
sallallahu alaihi claimed that he
received revelation from allah
and that i will go to the hellfire
but now i am a muslim what does it mean
the quran is not true subhanallah how
could abu lahab not think of that
simple thing to destroy the message
yes except that allah knew that he would
never
believe until his death
he lived for many many years after that
you know abu lahab and
you're right you know one single
statement
the the muslims would have been shaken
in their faith you know what this is
what the quran is saying and this is
what this person is coming
no so who is right the prophecy so chef
what some people do is
they unfortunately they say that you
know what we have to be harsh and firm
with those people
because they are abusing and they are
harsh with us
i think even though we covered it
anything else you want to add to that
aspect because we want to just you know
remind ourselves and those duvat
mashallah they have good intention
we are harsh because they are harsh kind
of attitude
no we cannot okay we cannot continue in
that
like you said they speak a corner anyone
passing by
they say oh there is there are two
bunches of angry people
you know many people even don't want to
waste their time
in this kind but i don't mind if there
is a corner
speaking positive about islam for those
who are interested
no shouting no not a battle of other
people
but rebuttal in in a given issue
something
even you don't say they say some people
argue this this but if we really go back
to the origin of the
to the original scripture we find this
this and that
you don't have to say the wrong let
people respect their intelligence
that they will conclude what is right
and what's wrong
but never something something doesn't
lead anywhere
but allows shaitaan and we have example
at the time of the prophet sallallahu
alaihi
when i was sitting with abu bakr allah
and one man came and abused
abu bakr so he kept
silent abu bakr in the prophet saw
then he abused him second time
and the third time abu bakr is a human
even though he's known for his
gentleness
he responded to that person who abused
him
twice as that happened
the prophet salallahu left
the massive they were sitting there and
he left
so abu bakr runs after him
what did i do something wrong does that
upset you he said look when he abused
you
the first time the angel answered him
for you the second time
they answered him for you
but once you started reciprocating
then the engines went away left
and i didn't want to didn't want to
continue sitting in a place
where the angels left
yeah yeah you know i was discussing this
yeah mashaallah i was discussing like
today's topic with my wife and she said
you know sabil
try to mention the incident in which
that bedouin came inside the prophet's
masjid and yuri needed
and how soft the prophet was even to
that person who defiled the masjid
exactly exactly he didn't condone it
but he didn't act like some of the
companions were just about to jump on
him
yeah he even said let him finish it's
just so painful
it's already but of course the
floor of the mosque was not a fancy
carpet or anything
it was like pebbles and earth
just just pour some water on it
but and then the prophet came gently to
him say this place is not for these
things but it is for prayer this this
and that
the man was so impressed
with the kindness of the prophet even
who did a terrible thing
some narrations say that he said oh
allah
have mercy on me and muhammad and no one
else
did agree he said don't you don't you
don't restrict
the mercy of allah which is so all
impressive
so this is an example there are numerous
examples of that
and the gentle way of resolving the
issue but teaching also
one that comes to mind was can you share
that was there one situation where the
man actually put his hands on him
and he pulled his he pulled what he was
wearing and actually left a mark on him
what was that all about i think he was
uh
needing to get some you know that like
the vital man
the muslim places for what do you keep
the
you know the grains the dates
in some places even some animals that
would paid as zaka
in any case so that man
uh wanted to get something so he almost
like he said choke the prophet salallahu
and say give me this is not your money
this is the money of allah
yeah as milo that's
that was an incident where i think he
says i'm not mistaken that
um sought permission of the prophet to
just
punish him even some narration say
let me hit his or cut off his head or
something
and the prophet said no no
and then he gave him more he gave him
more on top of that
and they say all right are you satisfied
now
is that a separate situation where we
see that there was a jewish scholar a
jewish scholar who had
seen the signs but one of them that he
wanted to put the test was the
forbearance
that this messenger to come would have
forbearance meaning that if you're able
to punish
that you don't end up punishing and
whatnot so he gave him a loan
and then he came back purposely a short
time while let's say it was like six
months he came after a month or
something and then he started insulting
and he started to
you know use defamatory language whatnot
in front of everybody
and and then uh testing him so this is
also another situation on top of this
one
it was not only yeah that's a different
one
not only uh did he insult the prophet
sallallahu alaihi
but his whole clan
you our people are so relaxed
in paying what they owe to other people
oh you're really pushing it now
he's he's really pushing it now pushing
it
not only you but you you guys all
you know your clan are all people are
not
almost implying dishonest and you don't
want to pay
what you owe to others you keep dragging
your heels
you know but he ended up accepting islam
after all this is that correct
this jewish scholar yeah there is uh
i'm not sure about that but there is the
story where
arju accepted islam in fact it was
during the time of ali who was very
close to the prophet his son-in-law
and you know and his
his nephew um
what happened is that uh while ali-rad
was you know coming back on his
camel his shield
you know that they use for protection
nor
his shield fell off and that jew
picked it up
now as ali radhian
saw that you some say in the market or
in the strait it doesn't matter
the differences in rouetzen
yeah insignificant detail so
that you with his
carrying his property maybe he was going
to sell it or something
and um look at his behavior as compared
with the thailands of today
he could call all the police and
military this and military that and
just take it from him and punish him
severely
he goes to him like any citizens and he
was there the head of the state
beneath all the head of all the muslim
believers
and he goes to him and says this is my
shield
and that you say no i have it
it's still truthful in a way i have it
okay what did the ali
do he went to his own judge
known as
his own judge so the head of the state
and an ordinary person from minority
evil
group to give his case
to the judge that judge is amazing
in his fairness and how islam really got
into his heart
and all his actions
wonder why i say that the jew
sorry the judge asked first ali
so he asked him by his nickname
yeah abel hassan oh father of hasa
[Music]
so the judge objected to that
you called me with my nickname and you
called him
by his name you mean ali objected to it
objected okay the judge objected that he
called
him called by his nickname in other
words
as you call him by name accord me also
by name
subhanallah because nickname is like
it's more of a
affectionate thing call him
call me by name like him so ali uh the
judge
should i say ali what evidence
do you have i think
some narrations say that al hasan
he said no we don't accept testimony of
close relatives we have any other
evidence
he said no but this is my shield and i
know
so he tells ali i am sorry i cannot
rule in your favor i rule in favor
of that jew who had you
the jew was struck and he said
amir the commander of believers
take me to his own judge and his
own judge rule in my favor
by god this is not the behavior and
character of ordinary people
this is the character of prophets of
allah
i bear witness that there is no god but
allah
and muhammad is the messenger of allah
accepted islam
on the spot and then he came back to ali
he says i am sorry yes
this shield is yours it fell and i took
it so ali looks at him
he said didn't he didn't take it he said
okay
having become my brother in islam
i'll give that back to you as a gift
from where do you find
models like this dr sabile
you were going to give uh any more
examples that you wanted to share
um it's not an example it's an
observation nowadays when people make
those debating videos
like speakers corners or you know some
other place where people have dawa boos
and shouting matches between muslim and
the christians coming there
it is not just between those two
individuals
when these videos are uploaded literally
tens and hundreds and thousands of
people are watching even the non-muslims
even those who may be like sincere they
want to just learn
but with these shouting matches
sometimes in the with the behavior of
the muslims also there
i fear and i cry many times that we are
turning people off from islam and they
may hold you know us responsible on the
day of judgment we saw the behavior of
the muslims their teachings
and we were not attracted by it
so what you say i mean you know
literally it's not just to individuals
debating
thousands of people are getting affected
negatively sometimes
especially in our age of social media
and all of these you quite right so no
damage on doing damage
into the 50 or 100 audience you're doing
damage
of thousands of others so it is a deed
it is
driving people away from islam that were
not even
in the lecture hall there is no question
about that i must you have experienced
also
dr seville of dialogue
takes place and occasionally
someone come after that and either he
says
i want to become a muslim or says
i'm really interested islam how can i
get a copy of the quran
which normally shows great interest
and sometimes down the line maybe allah
will open their hearts
you have you have so many debates out
there again people can go on youtube
and there many of them are an sd
standard definition but you know
and then you have all the tapes you have
over 300 plus tapes you know
uh clearing the misconceptions of islam
delivering the message
do you have uh what was your experience
with people such as who are still
i think out there they're out there
doing dialogues debates uh uh
and did he did he end up um at least a
little bit uh
you know changing some of his uh
perceptions about islam someone like
academic william craig who you debated
or had a dialogue with
did some of his that afterwards did you
go did he come to you and say hey
did he change his position on anything i
don't remember
that specific incident but it's quite
quite normal that some of the audience
because alhamdulillah it was a very
civilized
uh debate even though they started by
saying
you cannot have two rights one will be
right and one is wrong so
the lying of course that islam is wrong
it didn't really
cause me alhamdulillah except to
address the issue uh objectively
but i just want to correct one thing
actually
it is not 352
tapes it's 352
half hour programs have our programs
when we had the taping originally on the
the old
three-quarter inch with these big ones
each tip
accommodated the two uh with the
the um the regular video
uh we could have like as many as four
two hours four
you probably heard some ridiculous
arguments one that just stands out i
remember there was a person also that
you uh
had a debater dialogue with robert mori
i think one of his arguments was that
muslims worship
the moon i think he started this right
so
moon god that came from him right that's
him but again
i didn't uh some muslim would say oh
he's this damaging our faith and allah
i said all right the quran says
of the signs of allah are the sun and
the moon
worship or prostrate not to the sun or
moon but for allah who created them
is indeed him that you worship so
if you have a strong evidence that's why
i'm saying one of the
necessary training for that is to be
aware of these things i'm not saying
to specialize in subhan said there's
nothing but that
but to be able families alhamdulillah
it was very easy to refer to the quran
chapter and verse
that because the other thing that would
help in dawah if you read
the background or see some of the
debates or writing
of people that might help you even get
the time to
document your answer right from the
quran
so why why if you have that
amazing evidence from the quran
do you have to get angry present it
coolly
so that someone like that who such a
ridiculous argument so e
you know so you so easily eloquently you
know refuted it
at the end did they retract you know
make a retraction apologize come back
say you know what
i messed up there i didn't you know i
was misinformed any of that
that is very rare but i remember there
was a scholar i prefer to
speak with even our dialogue with
scholars within the faith youngs
sometimes they have clergy clerical
position as well
and i remember it distinctly i forgot i
think it was minneapolis
that um he made
various materials speaking reasonably
but he made
several mistakes so
my response i said i appreciate
you know his attempt to understand this
but in my humble understanding if you
could talk to the quran
it is this it is this so there were four
or five things but not
you're wrong on this you're wrong just
very gently like that
you know when he stood up after me he
said yeah as
uh the forest what dr bender said about
this
that's helpful meaning i accept you
don't have to say no i was wrong
so four or five times he says this
that was helpful i'm thankful for this
but that is not
the character of the well-known
debaters you know the negative ones
sometimes you attract attention by being
so negative and attacking and play on
people's hatred
uh affected by by the media that's easy
to do
so yeah you were saying that we should
have dawa training
so alhamdulillah you know you may or may
not know this
that gain peace has been doing so
training
alhamdulillah we had three parallel
training sessions each week
one by the national dawah academy of
ikna alhamdulillah that was launched
this year early this year we don't have
like a muslim muslim
seminary for example right muslim
training place in which we train the dua
then they graduate after six months or
two years
so we launched it alhamdulillah this
year secondly we just concluded
a dawa training program for 43 countries
you know new zealand all the way to
canada usa uh
south america so there were about 43
countries
and then we have a specialized dhawa
training for sisters only
how with the comfort of their home or in
the neighborhood
how they can still convey the message
how they can break the eyes and answer
some of the easy questions tough
questions
alhamdulillah we initiated that and
obviously we can have
more of your input and guidance in that
also
uh brother eddie one more question that
i have is this one
that many if you type up you know
sharing islam or dawah
online youtube many of the debating
videos comes in
and unfortunately what our youth they
may be thinking that you know what this
is the norm of doing dhawa
the shouting the laughing the you know
the abusing
so that's my fear that our children our
youth our families
they may be thinking this is the default
way of doing dawah
so can you please uh you know enlighten
us
was debating the norm of the prophet or
he avoided it even if he did once in a
while was that the norm or was there
some other way that he conveyed the
message
okay i'll quote an ayah from the quran
just from memory
uh describing the the people of faith
were either samuel
that some group of christians
came to the prophet salallahu and asked
him about islam
and alhamdulillah it opened their hearts
and they knew that this was the prophet
even the scriptures as you aware
alluded to his coming so they became
muslim
so some of the idolatrous arabs
surrounded them
and started abusing them we have not
seen any group of people who are idiotic
or as idiotic
idiotic you came
and you sat for a short time with this
man
he said with him and you give up
your religion and your history and you
follow
his religion
it looks like a reasonable
occasion of revelation and some
corruption so they reply to them
when they find that they are abusing
okay
so they says
for us we're responsible for our deeds
you also have your own deeds
peace be with you salaam alaikum
we don't seek argumentation with those
who are
jahilene jahilin actually
could mean lack of knowledge but in debt
that context it goes to the
a legitimate meaning
means someone who cannot control their
emotions
so just uh wrapping up here we have a
little bit of time left
going back to the the term arguing the
word arguing
some people go to one extreme and say
okay it's totally some people
say it's haram to you know argue with
someone over the truth
and some people go to extreme where they
start you know almost fist fighting
so what's the balance now here that you
talked about earlier
uh the healthy arguing to ascertain the
truth
the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam
himself engaged in interfaith discussion
without any sacrifice of his claim as a
prophet
of having the truth revealed to him from
allah and the quran
right the jews said this and said you
said that
or allah says this or so
there are occasions where he like
just the story i mentioned these were
christians
and they were arguing with the prophet
arguing in a positive sense
because i would not imagine a christian
well entrenched in their faith
talk to the prophet saws without asking
him
what do you say about jesus peace be
upon him
what's your view of whatever the concept
of training
otherwise what were they discussing so
that seemed to be
a you know a sort of interaction
with people our faith coming without
sacrificing
you don't have to please others by
softening your
tower your foundations of your faith
yeah you guys were always like dr sabile
uh you dr sheikh jamal but we you always
you never compromise you always
delivered the message of the pure
monotheism
you know in in the in the wisest way
with hikmah
because some people they think like when
you come to when you're talking about
inner faint i mean how do we
clarify this it's not coming together
and singing kumbaya
yeah in fact the quran commands us aside
from the
the evidence i gave already
[Music]
don't argue with the people of the case
except in the best way that means
argue yeah they say but don't do it
except in the best possible way
how could we say okay okay so that
really really quickly going back to that
diversifying our dawah because right now
the debating form of dawah now becomes a
scene is like a default way of doing
dawah
but we need to remind ourselves and also
to all the wonderful duat out there
that the prophetic dawah was really
diversified way of the
dawa right he used to invite people on
the meal and convey the message
he used to go knock at the doors he used
to go to the market he used to go to
different cities
dictate letters so in our day and age
mashallah allah has opened many many
platforms
social media is one obviously you know
masjid open houses inviting them
socializing with them you know giving
them food and eating with them
and then conveying to them to them the
message of tawheed
you can use the tv radio newspapers
in all of these different ways of davas
has opened the doors for us so just the
debating on and on for many many years
with the harshness
unfortunately we need to move people
away from that kind of dawah
into more diversified soft dharma at the
end of the day this is what i say dr
jamal
that what we say how we say it
is it bringing people close to us and or
making us
you know distance to us
the problem of course that we our
challenge that we have to
deal with is that for many people
including muslims by the way
and some people of other faith
communities as well
uh dialogue is done
presentation and this but debate
is just like matching watching
boxing match wrestling match so
it seemed to have an entertaining
element
but dawa is above entertainment of
people
especially if drive if it drives people
away
from islam regardless who is the winner
of the argument
or the user it has that attraction and
by the way
brother ed might know that more than i
do
and even in the american context
the notion of debate is
is really interesting when we get two
sides on
a given issue vaccines this this that
it sounds more exciting but
unfortunately
even those muslims who
take a debating format they don't do it
even like americans here because
even american debates there is respect
there is time
so they take the worst
of debates approach
and leave the the best that could lead
people
and attract them to islam we should
really come back when we're doing
whatever we're doing to the basics of
our intention what's our intention
you know checking our ego checking our
nests right
just for both of you this question what
do you say for people that are out there
before we conclude
to say no no no and you know it's just
about you know showing your good
character which obviously that should be
the default
setting a lot of people won't even
achieve that of
great character but they hide behind
that and they'll say no no no
it's not our duty to do the dawah this
is for a specific group of
people and they hide many people hide
behind that have you guys heard this
common
excuse yeah in fact
one of the things the things in my notes
are i did not
include it because of time limitation
that
even when we talk about how to do that
one
number one check your intention
check your intention are you doing that
i'm speaking realistically so that i get
fame as a as a very famous superstar
super debater satan can get into us
from different routes or am i making
this to show my knowledge
yeah he's knowledgeable he knows a lot
well that's serious and i have to apply
myself every time
you know try to purify because nobody's
free from this
on the steps of shaytan or for some
people even
if i come become superstars then i can
perhaps have some price for my skills
and talents
and uh if you want me to come and and
debate or
this uh you have to pay me that much
asafullah
or are we doing that purely for the sake
of allah
trying to overcome and dismiss this
acts or thoughts that might diminish or
even remove your reward
with allah which is far greater than all
the
wealth on this earth these are
weaknesses
but we try to justify no i wanted the
truth the satan would
tell you do something wrong no this is
the way
i made truth
well known
yes i was also here are you done
yes yes you know those reminders are so
touching to our heart we need it every
single second not every day every single
second
what i can also mention brother eddie is
that
when we look into the quran surah 33
surah ayah number 21
upon him we have the best example to
follow
for those who believe in allah in the
last day and remembers allah much
so if some people they say you know what
just be a good person
you know people will get attracted to
you
we need to see from the prophetic
example not only he was the best role
model for humanity
he also used to open his mouth to invite
people to islam
to share the message so just being best
is one part of the equation
also informing and inviting them was the
complete
equation right secondly some people they
may say
let's just work on the muslims first
once they become good or best
now we can approach the non-muslims
again the prophetic example is
when the prophet salallahu sallam when
he was with the sahaba he used to give
them islam
make their faith strong but when he was
out there with the non-muslims in the
public in the marketplace used to convey
the message
simultaneously used to do both and i say
that
even the muslims of that time not
everyone was hundred percent perfect
some of them still used to do you know
and drink and not come to the masjid
even five day prayers
the prophet did not stop his conveying
of the message to the non-muslims
just to make the muslims perfect
right you know what you know
can you walk and chew gum and listen to
music
at the same time if that is possible
can you have programs to help muslims
side by side by addressing non-muslims
you can do it in fact sometimes the
effort
sincere good planned efforts
in trying to help a person accept islam
enthusiastic might be much less
than some not all some muslims who
you spend all the time and they're not
movable and they know better even
so it goes side by side the prophet
did not do that don't stop
in the at the same time they he was
teaching his followers and
about 40 people this one the
pillars on which islam was built
because of their sincerity because they
accepted islam in the
period of weakness and suffering and
risk to their lives even so
once you get this but in the meantime
you spoke in public
there is no contradiction side by side
right and there are about two million uh
people in america ship who die each day
average if we just
only work on the muslims trying to make
them better all of these two million
plus muslims eat non-muslims each year
they may hold us accountable on the day
of judgment that you muslims
were seven million strong you had three
thousand plus massages
150 plus you know full-time islamic
schools you had the resources
the knowledge and the obligation to
convey the message and you failed doing
that
right so any which way we look at it
shift right
side by side simultaneously uh
closing comments and suggestions now
we're finishing up
sheikh jamal tell us you know for us uh
coming up also now
what do you do to stay healthy looking
young
what are you eating you know give us
some light life hacks you know something
from your experience to help us you know
continue with that longevity
that allah kept us away from the
the haram food or drugs and
forbidden drugs not curative
uh number one number two
this is the sense of uh peacefulness
and tranquility of the heart and
remembrance of allah and
keeping sallah and reciting the quran
that keep the spirit alive and the
spirit
interacts with the physical body they
both
affect one another as far what you eat
i eat what my wife tells me to eat
because i have diabetes
so alhamdulillah yeah i need nothing
visual
alhamdulillah everything i i
am able to eat any kind of food except
of course the forbidden ones for
diabetic but i'm not too fussy
the risk of allah i i try
not to eat as much meat try
this is a problem in the culture
american culture
that the consumption of meat is
phenomenal really sometimes with the
three meals
so there are lots of guidance in
prophetic teaching some
advice from you know physicians who
specialize in this area
but nothing really unusual at all
so um other than that uh
and you're la la in your lat your last
closing uh suggestions advice
as we close up anything you want to
share with us anything else
i simply say that tawa is the essence of
the teachings
of all of the prophets it is at the core
teaching that is common among all the
prophets
and we will be betraying our
responsibility
not to offer it even prophet muhammad
himself
allah tells
we have not fulfilled your mission so we
have to think also of
us and our mission on
on earth to worship allah in the broader
sense of worship which includes dawah
and like dr sabil said this is very
significant
how do you face allah when somebody says
he was
my friend for so many years never spoke
about islam
to me if you told me i would have yeah
and we do carry responsibility in the
in this life and in the hereafter may
allah help us
and inspire and
help us to really present it
in a way that brings people not to drive
them away
honored to have you again on the program
thank you so much
for your time and dr sabile your uh
closing words yeah two quick points and
then one telephone number
one point is that even though i
presented some scenarios dr badavi
that some people doing that some people
doing this actually
i want to have a lesson for myself i
have my emotions i have my ego right i
have my fall abilities
so all of those things are applying to
me and to all of us not just
any specific person i want those people
to be aware and me to be aware of that
inshallah
secondly this is just my philosophy that
any interaction anything that we say any
you know conversation that we have i
always want to remind myself that what
would the prophet do
so allah in that situation in that
interaction
so that will keep on calibrating
ourselves with the right intention and
with the right methodology
what would the prophet do salam in that
situation
and those of our non-muslim brothers and
sisters for listening to this
program please give us a call to gain
peace dot com
1-800-662-islam and we can offer you a
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based upon what you heard
today based upon what you hear on the
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and blessed to interact with you may god
guide all of us
keep on guiding all of us and keep on
uniting our hearts and minds
so we can keep on becoming ambassadors
of islam and peace to all of humanity
and thank you bo thank you both amin
thank you both
and we'll end with that and we'll end
with the greeting of
peace jesus greeted his followers moses
and the last and final message sent to
mankind prophet muhammad peace be with
you assalamu alaikum